<p>UCLAri, you make a good point. Qui custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will watch the guardians? No politician or group deserves a free pass.</p>
<p>Still find Stein's piece juvenille and insulting which is probably how he meant those of us who support the military to take it. We "failed to object to a war we barely understood"? How condescending is that? My son who chooses to serve knows exactly why he's going to fight.</p>
<p>-33- Done</p>
<p>Thanks guys. It's nice to know that some people are thinking about why they hold certain beliefs dear. </p>
<p>I think the piece is rubbish, myself. Not that I think our wonderful executive has handled this excursion as well as he should/could have, but Stein really didn't have much to stand on.</p>
<p>UCLAri: while I can't say I understand why prayerful mom posted Joel Stein's article which was designed to offend, I can understand why it went largely ignored. Now tell us, what was your game all about? A lesson in the art of academic debate? Most of us know how to play the game, but on this board we get to choose whether we participate (or not), and silence is no reflection on our understanding of the facts or our ability to defend our beliefs.</p>
<p>I heard Joel Stein interviewed by Hugh Hewitt last night on the radio. Some of the discussion is on the website, <a href="http://www.hughhewitt.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.hughhewitt.com/</a>. While I am philosophically not in agreement with Stein, like many of you here, I am also quite offended by those who "support the troops, but not the war". Too many with that paradoxical (word?) approach don't seem to be thinking clearly enough to understand that their actions against the war are directly impacting the troops in a negative way. I'm not talking about free speech which is a right that we all cherish. I'm talking about the people who are still saying "I think getting into the war in Iraq was wrong. I'll stand by my belief and do everything in my power to bring it to an end. It doesn't matter what the troops think, even though I support them." </p>
<p>As a side note, I started watching "Band of Brothers" this week for the first time. My favorite quote so far came from one of the veterans who discussed the fact that during WWII some young men who were deemed physically unqualified to enter the Army actually committed suicide because they were so disappointed. How has this patriotism and love for America evolved to our current state so much over the years?</p>
<p>"As I suspected, Mr. Stein really doesn't know anyone on active duty, hasn't been to any bases or any of the service academies, hasn't met with wounded or returning troops, and generally admits to being blissfully ignorant of the military. He could not recount a single book he has read about the military, and doesn't even know how big it is."</p>
<p>Thanks for the link momoftwins.</p>
<p>Ann,</p>
<p>If you liked this and there is a chance you can hear his radio show, I bet you'll love it.</p>
<p>I would like to defend Prayerful Mom's choice to post the article. The anti-military bias some people hold is going to affect our kids so it is a worthy topic for debate in my mind. </p>
<p>Must laugh....when I post, I have a mental picture of myself standing in a room full of service academy parents, so I made a comment that fit that picture. If I'd known that some of the folks sittin' on the sofa of my mental roon were of a different mindset, I'd have kept my voice down!</p>
<p>While it is a blessing to find a forum of many like-minded folks wanting to go to or attending the service academies, it is good to jump off the comfortable bandwagon here into other areas to see what's going on and to add our 2 cents there too!
As a complete aside, I am always SO impressed when there are interviews with our troops overseas - even the 19 year olds sound like they clearly know why they are there and what they are doing. I only wish we heard them more often!</p>
<p>Y'all know that saying, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything". I think it applies here. I admire conviction, even if it is for a view other than my own. However, that only applies to the extent that one can back up that conviction w/ valid argument - and not just for the sake of being different. Didn't find much merit in Stein's article except as an inflammatory piece. </p>
<p>As weski stated, it is great to be among like-minded people, but when we have to defend a point of view, we come to understand more clearly WHY we feel the way we do. Anything that makes us examine our views & strive to support them is a good thing; so even tho' I abhor the article, I support the posting of it on this forum. (Thanks PM!). </p>
<p>Isn't it amazing that these young people who have chosen a service academy (and current troops) can recognize & articulate so well what the mission is & WHY they support it! Obviously, even at 18, they are not afraid to stand for something! Some adults could learn a thing or two from them!</p>
<p>"The anti-military bias some people hold is going to affect our kids so it is a worthy topic for debate in my mind."
I whole heartedly agree. but a more informed source of debate would be helpful don't you think? There is a wealth of criticism out there that rightfully demands attention - I just don't think that this article falls into that realm.</p>
<p>Quote from Stein when asked how he goes about his day: "Complaining about editors and playing XBox with people at Time. Then a boring meeting. And on Thursdays I write." Wow. Thats deep man. UCLAri, I just hate to disappoint but I'm a Mom and have more sense than to beat this dead dog. Its a waste of my special powers. If ya want to debate or to just talk, lets talk about a real issue instead of this. I beg you. This one makes my skin crawl. I guess you want reasoning? Heres the thing. I don't support this guy in any way, shape or form. He's just not credible. He just wrote something for his deadline and didn't even bother to do any research. Now why would I give credence to someone who doesn't respect what our kids do in life? They give more of themselves than the average bear, to protecting us and try to solve problems that the bad people of the world create. They are the best & the brightest and work to make this world a better place. Its NOT just the war that they put themselves out there for. Their jobs are not singular and its too big to go into a huge explanation on a web forum for their job descriptions. But as to the war, I've seen too many purple fingers and kids going to newly built schools for the first time ever to think us in the same catagory as the Sadams of the world. And drinking clean water too. This guy isn't fit to wipe the dust from our soldier's boots. He hasn't earned my respect. What has he done for the good of humanity? I looked and looked and all I could find was that "he wants attention". He actually claims it on his biography. He bites the very hand of the soldiers who gained his freedoms to play with his X-box then write stuff & collect his pay check.
You said, "Whether or not you guys agree with any of those dastardly commies in the Democratic Party, they are serving a vital function in a democracy." Are you labeling us one and all with that statement? Some of us were simply saying that this guys views are poo. Nothing more or less. I really didn't need to provide my stance on this so I'll apologize to my parent counterparts for getting up on a soapbox here. I'd rather noogie Taffy's head some more. He's my buddy. And UCLAri, thanks for saying you think the guy wrote rubish. He really did.</p>
<p>BigGreen, I love that W.H. Auden quote. Our kids are honorable & no one can take that from them.</p>
<p>I think it is 100% possible to support the troops and not the war. In fact, I heard cadets claim they did not agree with the motives for entering the war. Someone explain to me how it is so paradoxical to disagree with the war and support troops simultaneously.</p>
<p>This is dedicated to PrayerfulMom. LOL
<a href="http://www.bloggernews.net/2006/01/warriors-and-wusses-firestorm.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.bloggernews.net/2006/01/warriors-and-wusses-firestorm.html</a>
Read some of this guy's blogs. Link found towards the end. Hmmmmmm. Interesting.</p>
<p>i still like the article :-P</p>
<p>can somebody tell me how having a magnet on your car helps the troops? i still dont get that one</p>
<p>and please also explain to me how somebody is so patriotic that they had to wait until after 9/11 to buy a flag? bandwagoners</p>
<p>"As weski stated, it is great to be among like-minded people, but when we have to defend a point of view, we come to understand more clearly WHY we feel the way we do. Anything that makes us examine our views & strive to support them is a good thing; so even tho' I abhor the article, I support the posting of it on this forum. (Thanks PM!)."</p>
<p>bz2010 - I never questioned prayerful mom's right to post the article - I said I did not understand her intent. While open and honest debate can lead to introspection and a certain clarity of thought, inflammatory articles usually result in polarization and a need to reinforce an entrenched preconceived viewpoint. Little is gained from that in my opinion.</p>
<p>Ann,</p>
<p>Even though you may not believe it, I don't have any "game!" I just want to see reasons for everyone's strong convictions. I find it amazing when adults blindly follow a belief/person/anything just because of some conviction. Considering that I almost joined the AF after I got my BA, I'm not some anti-military wingnut. But, I do think it's important that parents consider why they're willing to support the government/military that is sending their children to danger.</p>
<p>We all talk about how Vietnam was a mistake, yet I see people in America today saying that we should basically blindly support our current regime in whatever direction it takes us. Isn't that the same thing?</p>
<p>Keep in mind, I've never been that opposed to the actions in Iraq. I just think that it's better to at least think about why I'm not.</p>
<p>Ann - nothing directed at you. Just supporting weski's statements & prayerful mom's decision to post. I like seeing just about anything in this forum - especially things that reinforce how wonderful our kids are for doing what they're doing & things that help them achieve success in those endeavors.</p>
<p>They sure come out lookin' pretty good next to a loser like ol' what's-his-name who wrote the article in the first place!</p>
<p>UCLAri: "I find it amazing when adults blindly follow a belief/person/anything just because of some conviction."
It's a well decribed phenomenon, and an interesting one to study if you have the energy. However, it is a mistake to believe that just because someone is unwilling to engage in public debate, that their convictions have no substance. It is also unwise for you to presume to know what their convictions are :).</p>
<p>michaelburt wrote:
"I think it is 100% possible to support the troops and not the war. In fact, I heard cadets claim they did not agree with the motives for entering the war. Someone explain to me how it is so paradoxical to disagree with the war and support troops simultaneously."</p>
<p>I will try my best to come up with a fairly succinct response to this. When broken down into generic terms this statement says "I support you, but not what you produce or do." I personally cannot seperate the end product from the producer of that product. I think it would be similar to a Scientologist telling a psychiatrist that they support him, yet they don't believe in psychiatry. I think there is an inherent flaw in thinking there is an ability to support a person, but not what they do. I think it impossible to fully support a person who is doing something you don't believe in.</p>
<p>With that being said I have no problem with someone who doesn't support the war. I personally am on active duty and if someone doesn't want to support me, well to be honest I don't care. (I sure would enjoy your support though, so I guess that does mean I care, oh well) Just don't harass me or treat me with disrespect. I'm simply a person who does believe in the cause and loves my work and chose to serve in the military.</p>
<p>As for Taffy's question about the magnet. I equate it to those who put bumper stickers on their car to support their favorite team. It's just a way of saying "Go Team". It's nice to see them on cars b/c it let's me know that those people support my fellow soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines. On a similar note if anyone is out in the Tacoma area they should drive past Fort Lewis on a weekend. There is a group called the Bridge People who go out rain or shine and wave flags and salute the troops as they drive in and out of the base. It was nice to drive past those people, they always put a smile on my face, unlike another group that stands outside another military base that will go unnamed at this time.</p>
<p>UCLAri, I doubt anyone here would agree with you that they blindy support/follow anything. Give us a little credit here. We're a pretty studied group. If you look back, no one had posted any "strong convictions" except on said crappy article until you tempted fate. I rarely get cranked about such subjects but I find that your rhetoric is in question in this particular thread.
If you're indeed not a anti-military wignut, why are you here questioning with "I do think it's important that parents consider why they're willing to support the government/military that is sending their children to danger." We're kinda beyond that here and I realize our government has problems. Always has, always will. Everyone would love a Utopia. We've also thought it through & so have our kids. They perhaps know better than we do. Our children are our most precious assets I promise you. Are you suggesting that we've laid them on some sacrificial block? What is it you seek here? Truly, I don't want to come across as being nasty and I do respect your opinions. I do. But the way that you're presenting them is a bit on the insulting side. I could be falling into the cyber misunderstanding trap here by not seeing your true facial expressions or tone of voice. I just wish you'd chill abit and take our feelings into consideration. We're apprehensive enough with our kids choosing this life. We think they are doing great things because they'll be this country's next leaders some day & we have a vested hope that they'll make things better. Debate is good. Insults, not. Sorry to use "we" when I really mean to speak for myself alone. I don't presume to speak for anyone here I promise. I just realized I'd done that & I'm too lazy to go back & change it all. I just don't want to see these kind folk belittled in any way. They/we go through enough worry as it is. What is it that you follow or believe so I can try to make some sense of this? What are your convictions? What rocks your world? Maybe we can step back & start from there. Do you truly seek answers or have you come to criticize? I just don't get it.</p>
<p>Taffy, some of us had flags long before 911 darlin'. Patriotism doesn't always just pop its head up in the middle of chaos. Maybe you just didn't notice it before all the magnets. And KP, I "Bridge People" you all over the place buddy.</p>