last-minute money issues re: tuition - what should I do/say to college?

Parents Forum
21

<p>I don’t know if my mother counts as low-income especially because of the property but I’ll see what I can do… worth a try just in case…</p>

<p>Employee scholarship is $15,200 total. I think I need a nap before I look at more numbers because they’re starting to blur together. But in any event I just discussed this with my mother and we (my mother) can actually afford paying more than I expected because she recently got a promotion, plus paternal grandparents are willing to contribute to some extent, so it’s starting to look possible that if I cash in my life insurance policy then I can take care of fall term w/out any loans and spring term with minimal debt. I still have to figure out how this works out for the next three years though.</p>

<p>Vaguely annoys me that I got into my top choice school only to be dealing with all this mess at the last minute, but whatever! Things happen! I’ll figure it out, or I won’t. Time to look up some loans.</p>

<p>ETA: “Bring a friend” is an excellent idea for blind dates and an excellent idea for deranged dads haha!</p>

22

<p>Okay. First, this is not legal advice. </p>

<p>Have coffee with your dad. That may be what it’s about. He sounds like a jerk–I made the mistake of marrying one too so my sympathies to your mom. But do call him. Do let him yell. Do not waive any rights, sign anything or negotiate with him. </p>

<p>While unlikely, it’s possible that all this is about is that your dad doesn’t want you telling anyone at school any personal business of his you know or telling your classmates that he’s been a real jerk to you and your mom (even though he has been.) </p>

<p>Go have the coffee. You have nothing to lose and much to gain.(I’d let someone scream at me for an hour for that amount of money.) </p>

<p>After filling out the FAFSA, go to court if at all possible. Even in a state in which fathers have no obligation to pay college tuition, it’s highly likely that the judge will look at your dad as if he has two heads when he finds out he’s withholding his signature when it won’t cost a thing. It may be best to have your mom do this. Again, this isn’t legal advice–just common sense.</p>

<p>WHATEVER YOU DO, do not tell your dad that your grandparents will pay or that your mom can come up with mor $ or that you’ll cash in life insurance. I may be way off base, but having been in a somewhat similar situation, I suspect that your dad wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants you to go to this college and he waited until the last second to pull this stunt because he thinks by doing so, you WILL find another way to pay and he’ll be off the hook. </p>

<p>When you meet him give him the impression that if he doesn’t cough it up, you won’t go to college at all. Depending on his attitudes, you might suggest that you’ve talked to a recruiter and are thinking of joining the military since school is out for now. You can also be tough and tell him that if he doesn’t pay, you want no further contact now or in the future.</p>

<p>My hunch is that your dad will offer to sign the letter for you if you let him off the hook for his share of your tuition and that he suspects your grandparents will make up the difference. Don’t let him get away with it. </p>

<p>Quite seriously, if your dad works at this school I doubt that he wants you to tell the financial aid office that he won’t sign the letter so you can’t go to college. I suspect the financial aid office may be willing to contact him directly and ask him to do it.</p>

23

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<p>Do you own property BESIDES your primary residence? Your primary residence is NOT listed at all on the FAFSA. It is only listed on the PROFILE. However, if you own OTHER property (a second home, land, rental property), then this IS listed as an asset on the FAFSA.</p>

<p>But the primary residence…where you live…that value is NOT anywhere on the FAFSA. You will need income, and assets (bank accounts, CDs, dividends/interest). Most of the information will be on your mom’s 2009 tax return. The rest will be on your mom’s 1098’s from the banks. Does your mom receive alimony? If so, that is also included on the FAFSA under unearned income.</p>

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<p>Adding on to Jonri’s thoughts, I’m also betting that your dad doesn’t want his colleagues at school to hear that he is unwilling to pony up any $$ for his child to attend the school he works at…they have a ballpark-idea of how much money he makes and they will think he is a jerk</p>

25

<p>Hugs to you Poldyflower. You sound remarkably mature considering what has happened to you. I wonder if your father feels that you are on your mother’s side, and he is being used as a cash cow. He might be enjoying the power he has over you both. Understand that if you persuade him to pay this time, you will have to revisit this situation 7 more times. Please don’t cobble together a solution to get through the first semester if you aren’t sure you can continue to afford it. When you must depend on others for the money, you have no control. Good luck to you!</p>

26

<p>There was another saga much similar to yours, whereas the dad also makes 200K /year and refuse to pay. By any chance if this is the same story? Do you have a twin sister and one of you goes to UPenn?</p>

<p>Anyway I will give you Hugs as well, hope everything came out alright.</p>

<p>FA is given on year to year basis, next year it will be different once you factored in the dad’s situation.</p>

27

<p>Please – do meet your dad, and do NOT go to the meeting with a confrontational attitude or planning to make threats of your own (as Jonri suggests).</p>

<p>As a divorced parent, I understand where Jonri is coming from – but whatever fight there is or has been between your dad and your mom is NOT your fight – and you certainly don’t want to make it your fight.</p>

<p>We don’t have the full story, and I’m not all that sure that you do either. You speak of your dad’s “share” – but where did that number come from? Did your dad and mom ever agree that he was to pay that amount? It’s possible that there is a legitimate misunderstanding or disagreement – that is, maybe your dad thought his “share” included the $15K employee scholarship he could get for you, and only now is learning that your mom expected him to pay $22K on top of that. </p>

<p>If that’s the case, you really need to hear his side of the story.</p>

<p>On the other hand, your dad may be an angry, controlling person – and yanking the rug out at the last minute on the finances is just one more way of asserting control. If so – it won’t help matters for you to start threatening to cut him off or join the military – or to make a huge fuss – because then you are playing right into the battle he wants to set up. You’d get farther with that by simply not playing into the fight.</p>

<p>Or it could be something in between. Maybe your dad is an immature, selfish jerk who is just ticked off because he thinks you dislike him and don’t pay enough attention to him. If that’s the case, then being cold or angry only reinforces his sense that you are an ungrateful kid who only wants his money.</p>

<p>What did he tell your friend to say when he wanted the friend to yell at you. If the message he is trying to get through is “call me”… I can kind of see where he’s coming from when he insists on the coffee. </p>

<p>So meet him. Bring a friend. And arrive with the intent of being ready to openly listen to him. Ask him what the problem is about the money and the documents. Don’t tell him about the life insurance policy or other resources – but don’t act freaked out or get into a situation where you are begging or threatening him either. Just be matter of fact that the deadline for payment is coming up and if the payment isn’t made when due, the college will not allow you to enroll in classes. If he asks you what you will do then, just say, “I don’t know” and repeat that, without getting emotional over it. </p>

<p>I do want to add that if your dad is playing a control game, then he will keep on playing it as long as you are relying on him for money – and you really are going to have to give him what he wants, at least in terms of treating him with respect and giving him attention, because that goes right along with receiving money from him. </p>

<p>But you do have an opportunity as a young adult to forge a new and different relationship with your father, separate and apart from the fractured marriage and all the feelings that went with it. You are not your mom, and it is best for everyone if your dad stops looking at you as if you are. Your dad may be willing to pay, but he may have some very reasonable parental expectations - for example, like wanting to ensure that you will maintain good grades, attend classes regularly, etc. If he works at the college, then --whether you believe it or not – he may actually have some good insider advice to offer about majors and class selection. Even if his advice is silly, he’ll feel more invested in your education if he thinks you are listening to it.</p>

<p>If it turns out that what he wants from you is respect, gratitude, and a sense of continuing involvement in your life … I think you’ll come out ahead if you give him that. The flip side – showing disrespect, ungratefulness, or shutting him out – will only bolster whatever rationalization he may have come up with for withholding the money.</p>

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<p>calmom…I’m seeing red. You do NOT understand where “I am coming from.” You haven’t a clue. NOT a CLUE. </p>

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<p>It IS his/her fight. It is about HIS/HER education. It is about what his father “owes” to HIM/HER. Bullies are bullies. They put their kids in the middle. The ONLY way their kids get anywhere with them is to stand up to them.</p>

<p>It is crystal clear that this young man or woman doesn’t have a great relationship with his/her father. (S)he has NOTHING to lose by standing up to his father. If his/her father won’t pay contribute to his education then in my book, it IS his/her fight–and (s)he has EVERY reason to treat it as such.</p>

29

<p>I think you are in a better position because your father works at the school and he may eventually not want to be embarrassed at his place of employment.</p>

30

<p>Jonri, if this kid wants to fight with her father, its a losing battle because the man is not obligated to part with $22K of his money for her. So if she wants to carry on her mom’s battle with the guy – she can – but it is very likely that his legal obligation to her is -0-. So he wins. He pays nothing, he rationalizes to himself that his kid is an ungrateful little twit who treats him like dirt, just like the mom does – and the kid and mom get to foot the entire college bill, if they can manage. (The mom likely will end up refinancing the house to do it, which is exactly what the dad probably figures she’ll do, because he’s probably still nursing whatever anger he has over the fact that she got the house in the divorce settlement). </p>

<p>OR – the soon-to-be college kid can act like the grownup in the family, stop feeding fuel into old battles – and either try to figure out a path to getting along with her father and resolving the money issues, or at least walk away from the situation without his money knowing that she didn’t throw fuel into the fire. </p>

<p>The only way to win in this situation is to try to make peace. She can’t make the guy sign papers or part with a single dime of his money – she’s got no power.</p>

<p>And you are right, I don’t understand your situation. I figured out when my kids were small that for the sake of my own self-respect and for the sake of my kids, I needed to let go of the anger and the battle with my ex, stop worrying about who was right and what my ex owed me financially, and figure out how to support myself and my kids with or without his help – AND to leave the kids out of the conflict. So I really don’t know what it would be like to continue to nurse the anger and push my kids into an adversarial role with their dad. </p>

<p>In my case, the guy didn’t contribute a dime to the kid’s educations and we all got over it. </p>

<p>My kids aren’t wimps-- they both are quite capable of standing up to bullies. But you can’t “stand up” to someone and ask for money at the same time, at least not without a court order in hand. (And any court battles need to be fought by the parent, not the kid).</p>

31

<p>^Likes this.</p>

32

<p>So, calmom, in your case, your ex didn’t contribute a dime to the kid’s [sic] education and you “all got over it.” </p>

<p>Congrats!! What a wonderful outcome! One everyone should try hard to match. Obviously, this kid needs your advice to tell him that he should just accept the fact that his dad is a jerk and it’s perfectly acceptable to expect mom to pick up his share as well as her own. </p>

<p>I guess I’m a failure because my ex ended up paying for half of college and my offspring get along with both their parents. But yes, along the way, they had to make it clear that he had to keep his promises to them, no matter how he felt about mom.</p>

33

<p>Jonri, I don’t know and don’t care what happened in your family. I’m offering advise to the OP of this thread, based on my experience both as a divorced parent, and on my legal experience. If you managed to get money from your ex by telling your kid to threaten to cut off all contact with the guy unless he paid up… well, so be it. I don’t care. But most people get really ticked off when they are threatened or treated rudely, and I’m giving what I know is good advice to a young kid who needs her father’s cooperation to attend the college of the choice.</p>

<p>The situation is complicated by the fact that the father is a $200K employee at the college, which sounds to me like he is a tenured prof or a college administrator, possibly fairly high in the hierarchy – because colleges don’t pay all that well in general. So while other people on this thread are thinking that maybe the father will be embarrassed that his co-workers will find out what a jerk he is… I’m thinking that maybe the dad pulls some weight around the campus, and he’s got a very different story to tell – and he may have the power to make the kid’s life on campus absolutely miserable if it comes to that. She doesn’t want to spend 4 years attending college trying to hide out from her father who happens to be a big shot professor or administrator there in any case. </p>

<p>She certainly isn’t going to get away with fooling him, threatening to join the military or cut him off, and then cashing in an insurance policy, getting money from her dads’ parents, and enrolling in the college. I have to also assume that the guy with the $200K university position (a) is not stupid and (b) talks to his own parents. </p>

<p>There’s another side to the story. I don’t know what it is, but I know that it’s there. There always is. </p>

<p>My speculation is that there never was a solid agreement on the amount of the contribution, and the dad isn’t willing to sign the paperwork until he has a face to face conversation with the kid, possibly because he thinks that the mom has been badmouthing him and/or misrepresenting the situation to the kid. The OP said that the dad tried to get a friend to “yell” at her – I don’t think think the father would have gone to one of her friends unless he thought he was in the right. My guess is that he’s trying to talk to the kid and she’s avoiding him – that guess comes from the statement that he says he just wants to have a cup of coffee. It’s very possible for the dad to be objectively in the wrong but subjectively believe himself to be the aggrieved party. </p>

<p>Also, as far as the money question goes, if the paternal grandparents are willing to pitch in… that’s essentially the same as money from the dad – its what she can expect from that side of the family. That’s true whether or not the paternal grandparents and the father are on good terms. </p>

<p>It may be that there is a divorce decree that requires the father to contribute a specified percentage or sum of money – but if there is, that is for the mom to enforce – not the kid. </p>

<p>No matter what has happened in the past, its in the kid’s interest to take a conciliatory approach and try to open lines of communication. If that fails, then the kid is in no worse position than she already is – but at least she won’t be the one to blame.</p>

34

<p>I think calmom is probably right that dad could be upset about something unrelated to college finances and this may be his way of getting his message heard. Not agreeing with it, but have seen it many times with divorced parents who aren’t spending much time with their kid…and often that’s because the kid is now a teenager and won’t visit, return phone calls, etc. My sister witheld her son’s graduation party and her share of his college deposits until my nephew went to her house for dinner. She had been calling and inviting him for months but he was always “busy” or just didn’t show up! She had asked my son to talk to him about it, to no avail, and the truth is that there was no excuse for him to be treating his mom like that…he was just caught up in his own little world and had little consideration for anyone else’s feelings. No one likes to be treated like a bank account and no teenager can grasp how it hurts a parent to be snubbed by their own child. My guess is that this dad may respond very well to a little bridge-building on the OP’s part.</p>

35

<p>Just want to make sure that you see that the family home does NOT count against you for financial aid on the FAFSA, and all the colleges we have dealt with say that the value of the home you live in is not counted in their financial aid calculations.</p>

<p>Always do a FAFSA. At some Ivies, families with incomes of $180,000 pay only $18,000/year. I don’t know how it works with divorce, but for any of us, situations can change, and I think it is good to be in the financial aid office’s system. Then, you can just contact them with changes.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>Calmom - great post 30, 33. And sk8rmom - I agree with your thoughts in 34#. Dad wants to have coffee and talk with his daughter; I can’t imagine a college professor or administrator NOT wanting his daughter to attend college, especially if he can afford to help make that happen. The OP needs to spend some time with her father to find out what is going on…</p>

37

<p>Jonri – I feel the hurt in your post, but I’m glad your situation worked at as it did.</p>

<p>calmom – I respect and agree with your approach. Bravo for the ability to moderate emotions on very emotional issues.</p>

<p>In my case I am married to a guy who would not pay a dime for the kids’ educations. (We keep our money separate.) I don’t know what’s wrong with him, but having money to provide for his kids is not a top priority. He’s a jerk in some ways, but a gem in others. We got over it too.</p>

<p>One thing kids did was work/study for all their spending money. They are both grateful circumstances pushed them into this. It made them more responsible.</p>

<p>OP: Agree with calmom’s advice. Have the coffee. Try to get at least the scholarship. It halves your extra obligation. Someone mentioned that the FA might contact your dad directly for the signature. Seems like a worthwhile avenue to me.</p>

<p>I think the college will put off its deadlines in this situation and it sounds as if you will be able to work something out.</p>

<p>Then you have a year to repair things with your dad and to apply for FA or whatever seems appropriate.</p>

<p>You mention FAFSA. But if this is a meets full need school you usually need a CSS Profile, too. Unfortunately your dad’s income can’t be unincluded from that, but go forward and see what happens.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

38

<p>I agree with calmom, you have nothing to lose by trying to repair a relationship with your father. Reading between the lines, these employee scholarships often cover about 8 semesters total. So, if your dad is remarried, he may be getting pressure from his wife and her/his kids to save the employee scholarship money. My understanding is that this money usually can be used for step-children as well.</p>

39

<p>^^^</p>

<p>Yikes…that is possible. If he’s remarried and wants to reserve the scholarship for his step or other children. some schools limit such scholarships to a limited number of recipients.</p>

<p>However, I got the feeling that he’s not remarried and that the divorce is rather recent (but that’s just a feeling…no evidence for that). </p>

<p>The dad is very upset over something…maybe something happened at the high school graduation (was he invited? overlooked? ignored? ). Or maybe he’s just mad at his exwife who got the house? </p>

<p>The thing that bothers me is the demand that you meet him for coffee and that he’ll likely yell at you. That sounds like he has an issue with you (not saying that the issue is valid). Maybe he feels like you’re using him as a cash machine without a relationship? If you only want his money and have no interest in having a relationship with him, then I think that will be a problem. Few parents will fork over $20k+ per year to a child who won’t have a relationship with them. </p>

<p>Don’t get me wrong. I can understand that if your dad is mentally unstable or verbally abusive that you wouldn’t want a relationship. But, if that’s so, then you may have to do without the money.</p>

40

<p>Calmom, your experience is your experience. Mine is mine. I am also divorced --obviously–and I am also an attorney. I don’t see why you think you know more about this that I do. What you “know” is good advice is imo LOUSY advice which probably served to cut your kids off from their father. I do think my “outcome” is better. Dad paid for half of college and a lot more. Our offspring get along well with both parents–even though we can’t stomach each other. Indeed, I’m very, very proud of that. Nor do I appeciate your efforts to psychoanalyze me. You do not know “where I’m coming from.” </p>

<p>I think Calmom’s advice to bring a friend to the meeting is bad advice. Even today, if I were to meet my own kid for a scheduled meeting to discuss money matters, I wouldn’t discuss them at all if my kid brought a friend and I would be furious that my kid had done so. Dad has a right to see his kid alone and for the kid to agree to such a meeting and then bring a friend along is IMO a recipe for a disaster. </p>

<p>I think some of you are missing the fact that I think this kid should try to build a relationship with his or her father. I have said that the kid should go to the meeting and listen–(s)he has much to gain and little to learn. Dad may be using this occassion to try to reestablish a relationship with his child or to request that the kid refrain from airing the family dirty laundry at the university or for some other purpose. The kid should go with an open mind. </p>

<p>However, the kid should NOT allow his dad to use the meeting to negotiate down his financial obligations to his child. </p>

<p>While I don’t think a father ought to be expected to pay for a good chunk of the college education of a kid who refuses to talk to him–at least in most circumstances, I also don’t think a kid should be expected to “make nice” to a father that pulls the kind of stunt this dad has pulled. It’s one thing for dad to refuse to pay–and another for dad to make the kid think all along that he will and then pull this stunt at the last minute.</p>

<p>Again, for reasons unknown, calmom has decided that dad’s last minute stunt here is because he’s angry about something mom has done. I’m reading my own experience into it too, I admit. Dad did something similar because he didn’t want to pay that much for college. I assume that in his heart of hearts, he figured I would come up with the money somehow–probably by turning to my mom. So, when our oldest when off to college, he too waited until it was too late to do anything else to say “no, I won’t pay.” I fully believe in his heart of hearts, he thought I would do what calmom had done and just do it on my own. </p>

<p>So, dad had to get the message that that just wasn’t going to happen. I would go to court to try to get him to pay, but if that didn’t work, then that college was out and kid would miss the year. Kid was–understandably hurt and upset by what dad had done. As in this case, the kid didn’t have to say "I’m angry because you won’t pay for half of an expensive college, " but “If you aren’t willing to pay for half of an expensive college, you should have let me know when there was time to make other plans. Now, I’m screwed and it’s because of you.” Dad caved. (Lets not forget the KID signed the bond in this case, based on the belief that dad would pay his share.) </p>

<p>And, yeah, I know my kid was mighty angry with dad. </p>

<p>I didn’t tell my offspring how to deal with dad. I did say if something is needed or wanted from dad they would do a lot better asking for it themselves than making it another item on the mom/dad list of conflicts. If not doing something for them will get a rise out of mom, he won’t do it. If I’m not involved and it is doing something for one of them because that child wants it, he’s much more likely to do it. </p>

<p>Paying for college should not be a battle between mom and dad and dad should not be allowed to “frame” it as if that’s what it is. Getting his/her education paid more is THE KID’S FIGHT. The kid SHOULD argue with dad to get it, IMO. </p>

<p>Basically, the advice from everyone else here amounts to “Accept the fact your dad won’t pay, get your mom to do it and help her to the extent you can, and move past it. But honor your dad by trying to develop a good relationship with him.” </p>

<p>I think that’s lousy advice. If it works–and it rarely does; the most common outcome is the non-paying dad loses touch with his kids–dad gets some of the benefits of fatherhood with none of the responsiblilies. The kids don’t respect dad.</p>

<p>At least with my approach there’s a chance that dad supports his kid financially and kid gets a relationship with a dad he can respect that is separate and apart from the minefield of his parents’ feelings about each other. In our case, it worked. </p>

<p>In any event, good luck to the OP. Again, I’d go see your dad ALONE and listen with an open mind to anything he wants to say on any point except welching on his agreement to pay a certain amount towards your tuition.</p>