last-minute money issues re: tuition - what should I do/say to college?

Parents Forum
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<p>I never said anything like that. I said – be diplomatic, respectful. Listen to the father’s side of the story. Find out what his problems and concerns are. And work from there. Hopefully, once the difference are ironed out, the OP will figure out what the dad is willing to do, and how much he is willing to contribute financially – and obtain his signature on needed documents.</p>

<p>I don’t think the goal should be for the kid to try to out-jerk her father. If he’s a jerk, there’s nothing she can do about it, but she doesn’t have to up the ante. </p>

<p>I don’t know a parent on the planet that will react well to their own kid treating them rudely or trying to get something from them through threats, pouting, whatever. (I financed my d’s education and the first 2 years of my son’s education, but if either one of them had pulled a stunt like threatening to cut off contact with me, I would have pulled the plug on the money instantly). </p>

<p>The kid wants money. If the head of a scholarship committee asked the recipient to show up for a interview as a condition of release of the funds, the recipient would probably not hesitate to show up. How anyone can think that its o.k. for a kid to expect a parent to fork over $22,000 he is not legally obligated to pay, but not be willing to sit down for a cup of coffee with the guy is beyond me. </p>

<p>The reason I suggested bringing a friend was because of the OP’s fear that the father would yell at her. If she arrives and it is clear that the father is going to treat her respectfully, the friend can leave. If it is a public cafe or restaurant, the friend can stick around, far enough to be out of earshot for whatever conversation is taking place, but near enough to come to the rescue if the guy starts shouting. </p>

<p>I’m skeptical about idea that the purpose of the meeting is so that the dad can yell at the kid anyway - that may be the kid’s view, but it doesn’t make sense from the father’s perspective. It may end up that every meeting between this particular father and kid turns into a shouting match… but if that’s the case, it’s also likely that the kid is contributing to the dynamic, whether she has the insight to realize that or not. It’s also possible that the kid knows exactly what the father is angry - or likely to be angry about – hence a real concern that the father wants to confront the kid. And again – that could be legitimate stuff or it could be parental overreaching – we don’t know. We’ve only heard the kid’s side of the story, not the father’s. </p>

<p>But we do know that the kid wants the father’s money. </p>

<p>My whole point is that if the kid wants money from her father, she has to make nice to the guy – because it is very likely that he has a legal right to cut her off entirely if she treats him like dirt. Maybe not – maybe they live in a state that requires him to pay some sort of money for college, but it probably isn’t anything like the contribution she wants. </p>

<p>Going back to the OP, and reading between the lines, here is what I see:</p>

<p>Yesterday my father announced that he would not pay his share of my college fees;</p>

<p>Who decided what the father’s “share” would be? Is the “share” something the father agreed on, or something the mother simply expected or demanded?</p>

<p>* that share amounts to $36,000 including the employee child scholarship he refuses to sign his name on. …We may not be able to afford court, but even if we can, there is a chance that he still might get off with paying only $8000 due to some ambiguous language last time we were in court. *</p>

<p>This indicates that at most, the divorce decree requires payment of $8,000. “Ambiguous” to the OP and her mom might be clear as day to the father. My guess: the decree requires the father to contribute $22K annually to college, and the father believes that the $14K employee child scholarship is subtracted from the $22K, leaving a net of $8,000 owing from him. After all, that’s his job benefit – something that would be lost if he ever changed employment. Mom & kid would like to interpret the provision as meaning the kid gets $14K + $22K (for $36K total) … but obviously it doesn’t say that explicitly.</p>

<p>So it may be that is what the dad wants to explain to his kid. And “explain” may be it – that the father has no intention whatsoever to pay more than that – or maybe the guy is willing to compromise and throw in a little more. The kid will never know unless she meets with her dad.</p>

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<p>Jonri, one of my closest friends is divorced, and her ex refused to pay their daughter’s college expenses. The law was on his side. He found out that he did not have to pay, and he did not. The daughter had to withdraw from the private LAC at the 11th hour and commute to a local state school because that was all she and her mom could afford. </p>

<p>Yes, they spoke to the lawyer and investigated all the avenues to see if he could be forced to pay for something, anything, since he is a surgeon and makes too much money for his kids to get any aid from any schools that insist on the non custodial parent’s contribution. </p>

<p>I believe, the daughter did not speak to him or have any contact with him for several months. My friend, of course, was outraged and furious. She wanted to take a contract out on his head. She was very hurt when she found out later in the year that both her daughter and son reconciled with their father and made the decision to accept him the way he is. </p>

<p>This was 10 years ago. Both kids have graduated college; the girl graduated Summa Cum Laude, double major, Phi Beta Kappa from the state school… She went on to a good law school, clerkships and is now making 6 figures in her first year at a prestigious law firm. She graduated at the top of her class in law school too. Son is married, is a pilot, graduated from a state school in aviation. I went to his wedding last year, and my friend was gracious to her ex, the children very loving. </p>

<p>He never did pay for the schooling but bought them cars, gave them money when he was so inclined. I think they squeezed more out of him than if they had given him the boot and kicked him out of their lives. But more importantly, they love their father and did not want be estranged from him despite his stinginess and selfishness. </p>

<p>Every family has to work these things out depending on the circumstance and how all parties involved want it resolved and what they are willing to give up. The OP and her mother should see the divorce attorney and find out if there is any recourse on this stance her father is taking, and if there is, they have the option to take him to court on the matter, IF THEY SO DECIDE TO DO. Some kids just out and out don’t want to take a parent to court and vice versa. I am not going to judge them for the decision, and more than I would those who do sue. It’s a private decision.</p>

<p>In some states, the parent is off the hook for tuition or anything unless it is specifically written in the divorce agreement and all terms regarding it fulfilled. So it was for my friend. She never dreamed that her ex who has a number of degrees, including MD and surgery specialty and a MBA, who always said education of his kids was important would pull a stunt like this. But he did because he could.</p>

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<p>Jonri and calmom you both make excellent points.</p>

<p>The bottom line for me is that we can never make anyone do anything they don’t want to. The courts can through salary garnishing, but individuals can’t.</p>

<p>And people have gone to jail for contempt of court, too.</p>

<p>If they father can be made to pay, I agree with Jonri that that is the most solid basis for an ongoing relationship of kids and dad.</p>

<p>However, if not, I think it wise to counsel that something be salvaged.</p>

<p>Jonri – I don’t have the nerves for the high stakes confrontation you are describing. I have my own sad story that H lost our kids’ college fun through very strange and crazy business practices. It almost seemed intentional.</p>

<p>He has not given money for their education leaving me to work a second job to do it. I would not have been able to shame him into it or corner him into it because he refused to earn enough to have the money to do so, although he is self-employed and easily could.</p>

<p>He has continued to earn enough to keep paying the large mortgage he created, and for that I’m grateful. We still have our house.</p>

<p>The kids have lost some respect for him, and I’m sad about that.</p>

<p>I think both calmom’s approach and Jonri’s approach worked out well enough for the people involved.</p>

<p>Perhaps we can learn from each other.</p>

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<p>And we perhaps will (or should) learn that not every single person or situation is the same, and something that works for one person might not work the same way for the other. There are some relationships that can be mended, and there are some relationships that must be destroyed forever, and I firmly believe that it is impossible for strangers on the Internet to be able to tell the difference, especially with only 1/3rd of the whole story.</p>

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<p>Agreed-- but we do know some facts in this case based on what the OP has posted:</p>

<ol>
<li> The OP wants to attend a college where her father works.</li>
<li> The father is relatively high up in the university hierarchy, judging by the size of the paycheck. </li>
<li> The OP wants money from the father.</li>
<li> The divorce decree can be interpreted in such a way that it does not require the father to pay what the OP and OP’s mom would like him to pay. </li>
<li> The father has refused to sign paperwork needed for the employee child scholarship benefit.</li>
<li> The father sent OP an an email stating that he would only sign the employee child scholarship form if we met for coffee</li>
<li> The OP has apparently not yet taken the father up on the coffee offer. </li>
</ol>

<p>Based on the above, it seems to me that if the OP wants the father to sign paperwork, she needs to meet with him and find out what he has to say.</p>

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<p>calmom’s advice was on the $$$. bitterness is toxic. life is too short.</p>

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<p>I agree with that. I’m just saying that we cannot know that the father’s requests will be reasonable or unreasonable, or if this relationship can actually be mended. I think we all know people who have made promises and actually honored them, as well as people who set conditions as a sort of trick or a trap in order to lure their loved ones into a dysfunctional trap. The student may never find out which is which until she speaks with her father, and even if she does that there’s still the chance that he has some concerns to address, whether legitimate or capricious, as well as the chance that he just wants to screw with her.</p>

<p>While I suspect that going for coffee with the man is probably the best way forward, I don’t actually know what has gone on before between the father and the child. If there has, God forbid, been emotional abuse in the past, then going to visit him might be at best a waste of time, no matter how much money is at stake. I hope that’s not the case and that these issues can be easily resolved, but since I don’t actually know what they are I can’t be reasonably certain that this meeting is a good idea, regardless of the money involved. Getting money for college is great, but I’ll commute to a CC before I resurrect a relationship with a manipulative abuser.</p>

<p>In the end, it’s going to be up to the student rather than us. As I’ve said before, we don’t and can’t know what’s best for her.</p>

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<p>Very well said, Gardna. </p>

<p>If the OP does meet with her father, I’d suggest a public place and have a friend he doesn’t know already be there. That way he doesn’t know the OP has back up but the OP has the support she might need. Also, frankly, she has a witness to whatever he says or promises regarding tuition.</p>

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<p>As far as I understand ( correct me if I’m wrong), parents of adult chidren (18+) are not legally obligated to pay for a college the family collectively can not or will not pay for(unless there is a court order I imagine that states a parent will pay for whatever school the kid or custodial parent wants the kid to go to- not clear in this situation). Kids (of intact, single, as well as divorced families) make college decisions all the time based on individual circumstances and ability to pay. The dad may feel he is being reasonable if he signs over his college’s contribution ( worth thousands of dollars). Who knows? He may think he owes the kid a state school education , nothing more( many families feel this way). There is definitely info missing from this as to what the dad’s, mom’s issues with this have been. Best of luck to the OP and hope any meeting works out for you with your father.</p>

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<p>yes, of course it’s all speculative, but isn’t almost everything on a public message board? it’s pretty much all opinion-driven. i would speculate that since the original poster said that her dad taught at the school, that maybe their relationship isn’t that dysfunctional? i would think that she wouldn’t even have applied to this school (where she’d probably run into her father) if things were that bad.</p>

<p>she could meet him for coffee on the school’s campus. he’s sure to be on his best behavior there at least.</p>

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I question whether any kid who has grown up around a truly abusive parent would opt to attend college where that parent works. Seems to me that kids in that situation are more likely to opt for a college as far away as possible from the offending parent.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone for your kind thoughts and responses - and your stories! All this has been very interesting and enlightening to me. I have been too tired to respond at length but I have been reading all you have to say.</p>

<p>I have been busy dealing with my father which is, as always, an emotionally draining experience. Some of you surmised that my father is a tenured professor at my college, which is correct. The divorce was recent, messy, and involved other individuals at College X enough that I was asked multiple times during my admissions interview whether I would feel comfortable attending College X. I said I would feel comfortable. It now appears that my father cannot decide if he does, which probably accounts for some but not all of the reasons why he might not pay my tuition. I’m not sure that a coffee meeting would go far towards calming him down but it can’t hurt, anyway. So I promised to meet him for lunch with the understanding that he would treat me with the same respect I grant him.</p>

<p>As for the tuition stuff, it is looking more and more possible that I will be able to cover that with help from family, loans, etc. But I am still going to at least meet my father for coffee because I’m clearly going to be seeing him around a lot on campus and I would rather have him on my side than against me. I’ve already heard through the grapevine that he’s somehow been misrepresenting me in recent days to my future professors in the department I hope to major in, and I have no desire for that sort of behavior to continue.</p>

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<p>Good luck, Poldy, I sincerely hope the meeting goes well.</p>

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<p>Good luck Poldy! Going to the same school where your dad works certainly sounds a bit problematic. I’m sure you’ve considered taking a gap year, going elsewhere and starting with a clean slate. My D has a great relationship with her dad, but refused to apply to the top 20 school in which he teaches.</p>

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<p>I just want to congratulate you on your incredible maturity and calm in the face of this difficult situation. I am really impressed. I hope your meeting goes well - if you can behave in person with the same measured calm that you have demonstrated here - you will do yourself proud. It’s a shame that you are being dragged into the middle of this divorce situation - and your father misrepresenting you to other professors sounds so odd - cannot understand why he would do that - but if you are determined to attend college where he teaches - sounds like forging a tentative peace with him is the best approach. Wishing you a successful meeting - let us know how it goes.</p>

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<p>I, too, am sorry that you as too many kids have also experienced, been dragged into a messy divorce scenario. Some parents are so angry, fed up, broken, insane, nasty that they take out their feelings about the divorce on the children, knowing that they can hurt the other parent that way. </p>

<p>Jonri, in the many cases that I have seen, where the ultimatum was given to a father that all contact would cease, if support for college was not given, the sons of witches have considered that a fair deal. Many men just cannot be cornered and bullied that way and would cut off their arms and legs to save what they see as their dignity. Yeah, I know. Perverted thinking, but it happens again and again. Which then leaves the student empty handed for college costs. I don’t think the threat of cutting contact has much weight when the situation is so hot. The response is just, “go ahead”. They want nothing to do with anyone dealing with the ex spouse anyways.</p>

<p>Of course, it is not every father, or even the majority of the cases, but it happens enough times that I’ve personally seen it among our friends, acquaintances, family, kids’ schoolmates. There is an insanity that sets in during a bitter divorce.</p>

<p>The OP and mom should definitely check with the divorce attorney and see if the father does not HAVE TO pay. If it can be done through legal means, that may be the best way to go, since it then would not depend on the moods and whims of the father who is angry, vindictive, emotionally distraught, insane at this time. I have a feeling that the legal venue is not going to beneficial.</p>

<p>Sevmom, there are states and situation where the non custodial parent is legally required to pay for college or a set amount during college years. If that is the case in this situation, as I stated above, the OP should look to see what legal recourse she has.<br>
She should know exactly where she stands in this mess in terms of the divorce settlement and whether she has anything coming to her. So should the mom.</p>

<p>As to why she wants to go to College X, it’s probably the best possible alternative for her. It’s probably a good school, she can commute, with the tuition benefit, the cost will be low or nothing. Even going to a community college with its low cost would cost something. I doubt she is PELL eligible so she isn’t likely to get anything other than loans to go anywhere else. Also it is now August and rather late to be looking for other alternatives. </p>

<p>A legal queston: if a parent has tuition benefits through work, or any kind of benefits, does he legally have to provide them to his children? Can he just refuse to sign, so the kid does not get that benefit? </p>

<p>As an aside, I think the dad is crazy with rage right now, feels abused and humiliated, wants revenge on the ex spouse, is angry with the daughter because she is associated with the ex spouse and is playing a power game. Though I don’t know if he’ll go so far to pay a dime of her college costs for a while, I think he just might sign the papers for the tuition benefits after posturing and raging and making it clear that he is the boss here with the child. At this stage of this terrible game, I don’t think any threats are going to do anything but escalate the situation and make the father even more obdurate about doing anything and even make him more obstructive.</p>

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I don’t know. Based on the OP’s last post, I wonder if the dad doesn’t want the daughter in a position to know what’s been going on on that campus leading up to this point and possibly not to know what he will be doing going forward. Might cramp his style and put a different face on the divorce than the one he’s been putting out to his co-workers.</p>

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<p>Who knows, Zoosermom? It seems pretty clear that the dad is not thinking clearly, is enraged and crazy at the moment. Not an unusual situation right after a nasty divorce and split of marital assets. A lot of murders occur during that time pocket. It is not a good place to be. And the poor kids often end up right in the middle of it.</p>

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<p>I would seriously consider not enrolling in this school. Have you considered taking the semester off and spending the time applying to schools outside of the area. </p>

<p>IMO–The emotional baggage at this school isn’t worth the aggravation. For every sub-par grade, you’ll wonder if it’s due to something your father said to the professor. For every stump in the road, you’re going to wonder if it was put their by your father. Your mother is going to blame (perhaps rightly so, we don’t know) that every and any obstacle you face at this college is directly related to your father. </p>

<p>Seriously, there are so many other colleges out there and I find it a little odd that you would choose the college that where your father has touch strong ties. Finances may be the reason (due to his scholarship benefit) for your choice. Even so, there must be other colleges out there that would be both an academic and financial fit for you.</p>