“the time and effort could be instead used for English, Math, Science or EC for possibly bigger gain in personal growth and college preparation”
Well, since most selective colleges require a foreign language in high school of at least 3 and preferably 4 years, best not to neglect it.
“How Can You Best Prepare for Harvard?
We hope you will read our thoughts about choosing high school courses that will provide a strong base for a liberal arts education. But in summary, we recommend:
Four years of a single foreign language” https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/preparing-college/choosing-courses
“Although Bowdoin does not require a prescribed high school program or number of courses, the typical entering first-year student will have had four years each of English, foreign language, mathematics, social science and three to four years of laboratory sciences.” https://www.bowdoin.edu/admissions/apply/selection-process.shtml
And there are many, many more. Most top colleges expect a balanced curriculum including English, math, science, history/social science, and foreign language. Add colleges like US that also want arts. As I’ve said before though, even 4 years of a FL in HS will not result in proficiency for most students.
" As I’ve said before though, even 4 years of a FL in HS will not result in proficiency for most students."
Of course. That’s why most selective colleges require foreign language study there as well as encouraging study abroad.
For a common student, achieving fluency in a foreign language would take a lot more time and effort than merely acing in 4 years of high school language courses. Most selective colleges do not require fluency, and not even proficiency in a foreign language.
For many kids in other countries, English is the most important subject that they spend one third to half of their entire time and effort on academic. And it is usually impossible for U.S. kids to compete with them for dual language required job positions. Trying to do so, unless your passion is in languages, would be highly inefficient way of setting priorities.
@doschicos, Who cares about public school offerings? I care. We need adults who can speak foreign lanuages. Boarding schools are about 1% of the whole array of schools, the last I checked.
As for watching movies, sure, it can be useful in conjunction with effective instruction. When the language “lessons” are 45 minutes a week, though, watching the same movie in Spanish over and over is not sufficient.
To put things in perspective, more students took the SAT II in Latin than took: German, Modern Hebrew, Italian, Japanese, or Korean. This article bemoans the state of language instruction:
As to Latin being a “dead” language, it is a different experience to read texts in the original language. The written foundations of western civilization are based on Latin texts, and on the writings of people who were fluent in Latin.
“Who cares about public school offerings? I care. We need adults who can speak foreign lanuages. Boarding schools are about 1% of the whole array of schools, the last I checked.”
“To put things in perspective, more students took the SAT II in Latin than took: German, Modern Hebrew, Italian, Japanese, or Korean.”
In the context of THIS thread and the OP’s questions, this doesn’t matter. Spanish or Latin? That’s the discussion here. No boardings school student will be “watching the same movie in Spanish over and over.”.
I have a graduate degree in Linguistics. Foreign language proficiency is not a prerequisite for admission to a graduate program in linguistics, although a strong language background (not necessarily foreign) is assumed. Linguistics studies language and its structure, not a specific language or foreign languages.
That said, I agree that the state of foreign language instruction in the US is poor by any standard. First of all, starting a foreign language in HS or college is too late. Second, English speakers really need to study more than one foreign language, whether contemporary or dead. This has less to do with career prospects in a global world and more with the fact that English is one of few analytic languages (those that use word order and particles or prepositions to convey grammatical relationships) in a sea of synthetic languages (those that use inflections to convey grammatical relationships), such as Latin, Greek, and most all Romance, Germanic, and Slavic languages. For English speakers, the lack of exposure to a synthetic grammar is akin to the lack of study of algebra or geometry. You may not apply the knowledge directly in everyday life, but it shapes your thinking and your ability to use logic, not to speak of the exposure it gives you to other cultures, literature, and art.
As an example, two foreign languages were required in school where I grew up: one started in 3rd grade, the other in 7th grade. Some kids took a third language, but that wasn’t required. In college, study of a classical language was required in addition to two foreign languages. What’s the benefit of all this? Here is an example: I never studied English in either school or college, but with various levels of proficiency in six other languages and a degree in linguistics, I just “picked it” and was fluent in it long before I set foot in the US. The lack of formal English background notwithstanding, I’ve been able to work as a translator, editor, and scientific writer in English (before I did a 180 and changed careers… so don’t ask how old I am!). Plus, my kid got to write BS essays about the hodgepodge of languages she grew up with… So in my view it’s not an “either-or” argument. The more the better, I say!
@Goatmama, how cool! I’m envious and impressed, all at once!
" but it shapes your thinking and your ability to use logic,"
One of the amazing things to nerds like me is thinking about how the constructs of a language impact thought. If there’s a highly evolved subjunctive, are reality and possibility more distinct? Or can you think more about the latter without being limited by the former?
IF a language links the idea of “no” to time, so that a woman who is asked if she has children (even at 80) will answer with a no that effectively means “not yet”, are people more hopeful? If the language lacks precision, are there more misunderstandings or is conflict prevented by eliminating lines in the sand?
The sound of falling rain can be used to describe color in yet another language. What color is that black?
We’re so “trapped” by our own language, and studying others ones creates endless possibilities. I’m with you – the more, the better! (DS, btw, is most definitely not in my camp on this!)
“That said, I agree that the state of foreign language instruction in the US is poor by any standard. First of all, starting a foreign language in HS or college is too late.”
Very true. The few examples I can think of where high school students mastered another language by HS graduation with a high level of fluency (no native language speakers in their home/family) are kids who had the benefit of solid, early foreign language study at a very early age (K or 1st) through lifelong private school study. Plus, they were bright, hardworking students which didn’t hurt.
@gardenstategal, my kind of gal! We need a special CC club for our musings! If I didn’t have to worry about paying kids’ tuition, college, mortgage, and medical bills I would go back to literary translation in a heartbeat. Nothing stimulates deep thinking and creativity more than finding ways to convey thoughts, layered meanings, and metaphors from one language and culture to another.
Daughter was raised Korean only speaking home and can speak it well. She started Japanese at 5, taking Saturday Japanese school for Japanese defendants for 3 years. She studied Chinese for a year, using online 1to1 tutor in China, 3 days / week for 1 hour each in 8. Started Spanish the same way at 8, everyday for one hour from a teacher in Peru for 3 years and took a college course. She also lightly studied French for one year at age 10. Whoa, that was a lot!
Unfortunately she wanted more time for her other stronger interests, and discontinued all but Spanish that she has been continuing to BS. I hope her brain will remember some of them and makes it easier if she ever restart them, since she was exposed to them at early age and all.
She found Spanish the easiest and most useful foreign language, which also helps English study with shared Latin root vocabulary. With her lack of talent and interest in foreign languages, she won’t reach proficiency until end of high school, and probably never.
But still Spanish has helped her immensely in brain development and English study, and may make her adult life easier in many occasions as she will be able to reasonably communicate huge Spanish-only speaking population in the US, and access to vast Spanish culture that are rather less well translated into English.
I have often thought about Latin, and would be thrilled if dd decides to learn it as well. But if time and energy only permits one foreign language to reach AP level, I think Spanish is a better choice over Latin, or any other including her mother tongue Korean.
^ oh that’s cool! I spent a few years in Moscow, Russia in the mid-1990s for post-grad in translation. BTW, we had a translation center in the south, near Ukraine, and if you spent more than a couple of weeks there your hair started falling in clumps like after chemo. It was several hundred kilometers from Chernobyl, 10 years after the disaster.
@ChoatieMom, GK1 takes French in BS and will do at least a semester abroad. She plans to add 2 years of Latin in 5th and 6th form.
@GoatMama
Question: Don’t many universities ‘prefer’ (or at least ‘highly’ recommend) 3-4 years of focus on one language?
Is your DC planning to add Latin as an additional course (in which case she would be studying French and Latin simultaneously) or is she thinking of switching to Latin?
@GoatMama : I prefer simultaneous interpretation to written translation. I’m too much of a perfectionist and am never satisfied with what I’ve written. There is relief in the ephemeral nature of interpreting…
If the college requests 4 years of a FL, they mean 4 years of the same FL. If they request 2-3 years, then the student can certainly do 3+1 if s/he desires. But, IMO, one year (or even 2) of a FL in HS will be pretty meaningless from a learning/retention perspective.
