Latin SAT II

Pre-College Issues Home Schooling and College
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<p>Hi. This is my first posting and I have 2 questions:</p>

<p>1) It took me a long time to find the button that allowed me to post a new thread. Is there an easy way to do this? I'm pretty comfortable with computers but could not figure out how to put a new posting. Please help.</p>

<p>2) My real question is about latin. My 13 year old is taking Latin via homeschooling. He is pretty good at it but does NOT enjoy it and it is taking him many hours per day to do it. He is currently in the first half of ECCE Romani book 2. My wife would like him to take enough Latin to do well on the SAT II for Latin so that he can demonstrate what he knows and can do for college applications. Both of us agree that he will not likely be using Latin in a future career and both of us agree that he is doing Latin mostly because we told him that this is part of his curriculum. </p>

<p>Questions:
a) How much latin study does it take to do well on the Latin SAT II? Will he need many more years of latin or is he close to completing what he needs?
b) Do colleges actually value a test score in an area where a student has no interest and where a student is doing something just to look good?
c) If colleges do value a good test score in Latin and he continues to study latin for years (spending 25-30% on the subject compared to all of his other subjects), is this a worthwhile investment? Or is the return on investment so low that he should focus on other studies?</p>

<p>Finally, does this posting only go to the homeschool community or is there a way for me to post my question to the wider community?
Thanks in advance for your advice.</p>

<p>esek64</p>

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<p>esek64, my daughter studied Latin at home and took the SAT Subject Test. I can answer your questions about the test, as far I my understanding goes, but I can't say whether or not it's worth your son's efforts if he doesn't like it and it's enormously time consuming.</p>

<p>My daughter did a correspondence course in Latin from University of Arizona. She used Latin For Americans, not Ecce Romani, so I can't compare exactly where your son is in the program in terms of what grammar, vocabulary, and level of translations he's gotten to at this point. However, my daughter took the exam after completing 3 semesters of the U. of AZ program. (She completed 4 semesters ultimately, in order to satisfy a college admissions requirement of 2 years of a foreign language, but had to take the test after just 3 semesters because of the scheduling of the test -- the College Board only offers it once or twice a year, so to get the scores in on time she needed to take it before completing the 4th semester of the program.)</p>

<p>There were a few things on the test that she hadn't covered yet in her correspondence program, but she knew what to expect because she did a couple practice tests from College Board's practice SAT Subjects Tests book. There is a prep/review book available, published by REA. It's the only one I know of, but she was able to fill in a couple gaps (mostly about poetry and meter) by reading the information in the REA prep book.</p>

<p>I would suggest your son take a look at the practice test in the College Board book, and maybe just see how well he does on it. He might not do that well, but if his score is dragged down by just a couple things he hasn't studied yet, then it's not such a difficult matter to fill in those gaps.</p>

<p>That said... I have read some students posting on the SAT Subject Test boards here at College Confidential that they think you need 3 or 4 years of Latin to do well on the test. My daughter did pretty well, in my opinion, given that she'd only gotten through the 3rd semester when she took it, but it's true that she didn't knock it out of the park or anything. She got a 680, which is well below her scores on the other SAT Subject Tests she took.</p>

<p>The colleges she was looking at both recommended highly that homeschoolers take the SAT subject test in their foreign language, so that's what she did. She enjoyed studying Latin to a point, but by the time she got to about where your son is, she mostly was just doing it to finish up the two years. (In retrospect, she's very happy to have done it, however.) One thing is, if your son takes the exam, the College Board is changing their score reporting rules and if he doesn't like the score, he doesn't have to report it.</p>

<p>My daughter originally started with Latin because she just really wanted to learn it, and also because she needed 2 years of foreign language to start college. As it got harder, she was mostly in it just to finish it. However, their was another good outcome we didn't foresee, which is her Latin SAT score was high enough to also fulfill her BA requirements for a foreign language. She enjoys studying languages and is pretty good at it, but she also wants to do an Honors Program at the college that requires more credits than the general BA, she wants to major in one subject with a specialty certification in a sub-topic (also requiring more credits), she wants to minor in another subject, she wants to do a semester abroad, and she wants to graduate in 4 years (and I want her to too! $$$) Although she has subsequently taken two quarters of French in college, she is relieved of putting any more time into it than is practical at this point because her Latin exam score has filled that second language requirement to graduate. Not having to put another 4 quarters into French is not a small thing given what she's trying to do.</p>

<p>So, obviously, it's something that you and your son need to decide, but since he's put so much work in already, it may at least be worth taking a stab at the practice test and making an assessment then.</p>

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<p>Thanks very much for your long and thorough reply. I’ll chew on it and I know it will help in my decision-making process.</p>

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<p>This is a philosophical answer.
At 13, my entire focus as a parent was to help locate what my kids enjoyed and let them run with that. I would have loved it if they were interested in Latin, but they weren’t.
With the SAT Subject Tests, I have always felt that homeschoolers have a terrific advantage. For subjects that interest them, they can dig very deep for a number of years. Being compared to their schooled peers on subjects of choice was like shooting fish in a barrel. Not fair to those poor prisoners of school!
I have had two homeschoolers attend college so far. I honestly can’t remember how my son reported his foreign language study. My daughter used Rosetta Stone, which she purchased with babysitting money. That’s it. They did fine at college admissions.</p>

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<p>thank you!</p>

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<p>My son, 13, is also studying Latin via an online school. I recently found out that he would need to take the Latin SAT II to get into UW. I know he won’t survive 4 more years of Latin. It eats up a lot of study time.</p>

<p>Per his request and my approval, we are switching to Spanish. Two years of Latin will help him immensely in Spanish AND the Spanish SAT II isn’t as tough, from what I’ve heard.</p>

<p>We’ve invested so much time, money and energy into Latin. I truly believe it is an excellent language to study and grapple with. The article in the NY Times last week regarding the humanities has me rethinking our educational goals.</p>

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<p>Hi. Thanks for your insights. I think we have the same struggle. I also wonder about the opportunity costs. If he spends a lot of time on Latin, what could he have spent his time on instead? What will make a bigger impact, my son with some Spanish or my son with some Latin? Thanks for sharing.</p>

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<p>The Spanish test, like Chinese and Korean, has a very tough curve because so many native speakers take the test. Just something to keep in mind.</p>

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<p>'rentof2, what would you consider a good score for a non-native speaker? My dd took French in Jan. and made 690. She made 790 on the lit the same day. She’s considering taking French w/ speaking in Nov.</p>

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<p>Gosh, I don’t know HighlandMom. I have heard that French, German, and Latin are more generous in the curve because most people who take them (and <em>all</em> people who take Latin) are taught, and not native speakers. This is all just stuff I’ve run across in my reading around though. I can’t say what a “good” score is. I guess it’s relative to the score a student thinks they need. I would imagine a 690 is pretty darn good.</p>

<p>My daughter got a 680 on her Latin exam, and it was plenty good enough for her purposes. She, like yours, got a 790 on the lit exam the same day.</p>

<p>These are the mean scores according to the CollegeBoard website:</p>

<p>Chinese with Listening: 763
French: 620
French with Listening: 624
German: 620
German with Listening: 601
Modern Hebrew: 646
Italian: 671
Japanese with Listening: 693
Korean with Listening: 760
Latin: 624
Spanish: 640
Spanish with Listening: 647 </p>

<p>You can see the mean score for Chinese and Korean is really high. Contrary to what I’ve heard in the past though, Spanish is in fact lower than I expected. German, French and Latin have the lowest mean scores. So you daughter’s 690 looks quite good in that light.</p>

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<p>Thanks for that, 'rent. Is your daughter currently a senior or a junior?</p>

<p>I realize “goodness” is in the eye of the beholder. HighlandDaughter isn’t interested in Ivies, but definitely some top (or maybe second) ten LACs.</p>

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<p>She’s actually a freshman (in college). Being a homeschooler she’s been doing her non-traditional thing ;), and she finished up what she needed to do to start college when she was 16, and just wanted to get on with it. So she is living at home (I thought 16 was a little too young to ship off to live in a dorm) and going the public university here. She is planning to transfer to the honors college at the flagship state univ. next fall.</p>

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<p>I am also a newbie and couldn’t find how to post a new thread so I’m piggybacking on your thread if you don’t mind.</p>

<p>I have two kids (an 8th and 9th grader) who are now studying ECCE Romani III book. My question is whether to have them both take the Latin SAT II exam this June (we’d hire a tutor to prepare them for this exam) and then start them learning a modern foreign language starting in September OR to have them continue taking two more years of Latin (by then, 10th and 11th graders) in order to take the AP Latin exam. They do enjoy studying Latin but I wonder how much more valuable it is for them to learn more Latin at the expense of not learning a modern lanaguage like Chinese or French? Also, if they are to conclude their Latin studies this year, would having an 8th grader taking the SAT II still count for the colleges admissions? Or should I have her wait until next year as a 9th grader to take the SAT II but by then she might not be studying Latin next year but maybe Chinese or French. </p>

<p>Thanks for your input!</p>

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<p>Her score would be on file with the CollegeBoard regardless of whether she was an 8th grader, so if you think that would be the best time for her to take it, then that would be fine.</p>

<p>I do think that if you want colleges to be aware of and factor in their Latin studies at all, and you plan to move onto a different language by 9th grade, that you should definitely do the SAT subject test. I mean, it would be a stretch to get those years of Latin considered on a transcript of classes if they happened pre-high school. (It can be done, many people use algebra taken in 8th grade and include it, but I would think with a language like Latin a college would want to see that that study was actually at a high school level (harder to quantify than algebra). If they have an SAT Latin score though it would be a moot point.</p>

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<p>Thanks 'rent, that’s even better news - hooray - she’s “proven” herself and her mommy grades :slight_smile: And I’m with you in thinking that 16 is a little young for a dorm - but what a great transition to college life. I’d kind of like for Highland Daughter to stay at home for her first year of college, but she has her sights set on going to the other side of the country.</p>

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<p>My son is on the other side of the country. Because of my daughter starting college young, the odd thing is that they are both freshmen this year. He’s at Amherst and loving dorm life, although I’m not sure it’s the best thing for his grades! My daughter is looking forward to experiencing dorm life next year, but she’s a person who gets her fill of social energy pretty quickly and appreciates her quiet time, so I expect she’ll get tired of it in short order. My son would live in a tank of people 24/7… and he does. They are just so different in that way. Classic extrovert and introvert.</p>

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<p>'rentof2, great reasons to homeschool - fit the schooling to the student, not the other way around. My dd is more like your dd, though in the right element she’s very social. I guess she’s a social nerd or nerdly social. :)</p>