Law school dilemma

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>A few of you might remember that a while back I asked the community to "chance" me, since I was not sure of my chances of admission to a T14 law school with a 179 LSAT and a 3.285 GPA. My GPA suffered at Cornell U due to a variety of factors, which ranged from the fact that I used to be a premed student(and did terribly during my freshman year) to my general dislike of Cornell and Ithaca. Following my disaster of a first year as a premed student, I double majored in English and Philosophy, two topics that I genuinely liked. I graduated in 4 years. My GPA without my first year would probably be a high 3.6, since I double majored I am not sure how to combine major GPAs.</p>

<p>Several members of the community urged me to apply to law school due to my exceptionally high LSAT score, but I've recently been in touch with several of my professors, and they all more or less seemed to suggest that while they would not stop me, I should not bother applying, as they've that any and all grades from the English department are going to be incredibly inflated(despite the fact that most of the professors who taught the classes I did well in were fond of me and applauded my performance, etc...). This new reality, combined with a lack of extracurriculars and real work experience(paralegal, internships at big firms, etc...), has hit me a bit hard.</p>

<p>At this point, I am definitely going to apply. The issue, however, is that I do not know what I will do after the fact. Is there any point in going to law school if it is not a T14 law school? What if I do not get in?</p>

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<p>You would not worry about combining major GPAs; each individual class would be weighted the same. A 3.6 is a little bit below an A- average; it’s what you would get with 75% A-'s and 25% B+'s.</p>

<p>If I take your meaning correctly, your professors are saying that while you’d likely do fine getting into law school, your law school grades would suffer because your college courses were easy (“incredibly inflated”). Is that right? If this is their argument, I’d have to think about it some before replying but my intuition is to disagree.</p>

<p>Or are they saying that everybody knows that Cornell’s English grades are easy, you have no ECs and no work experience, and therefore you probably won’t get into a law school worth going to? If this is their argument, I think they’re wrong because none of that matters.</p>

<p>For admissions purposes, you are a 179/3.28, and I think you’re very likely to get into a T14.</p>

<hr>

<p>We just had a thread that for some reason was deleted, and I don’t know why. I was hoping to reference it here.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/1505354-still-worth-going-law-school.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/1505354-still-worth-going-law-school.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>In general, my thoughts are as follows:</p>

<p>1.) If you get into a T6, go. If not…</p>

<p>2.) If you get into a T14 with substantial scholarship, go. If not…</p>

<p>3.) If you get into a T28 with full-tuition AND if it is in the legal market where you would eventually like to work, go. This is even better if it is the premiere school in that market, which most of the T28 are. If you don’t get into any schools like this…</p>

<p>4.) Rethink whether law school is worth it. This is a very bad time to try to enter the legal market, for all the reasons that have become so famous.</p>

<p>5.) But if you are absolutely dead-set on going, then do everything you can to get the best grades you possibly can, keep your debt as low as humanly possible, and try very hard to choose a school that is the best school in its market.</p>

3

<p>Whether your English grades were inflated means nothing. You wouldn’t be the first person to go to law school with a grade-inflating undergrad. Similarly, no one will care about your extracurriculars. Work experience helps in the job search, but not admission to law school (except Northwestern). Your [url=&lt;a href=“http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-content/uploads/Law-School-Predictor-Full-Time-Programs.htm]numbers[/url”&gt;http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-content/uploads/Law-School-Predictor-Full-Time-Programs.htm]numbers[/url</a>] suggest a very good shot at a T14. I’d see about going to a lower T14 with cash, if you can get it.</p>

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<p>I disagree. Even many students accepted to HLS and YLS have had work experience. While it is only a significant factor for Northwestern, any work experience – even retail – can be a small plus factor for the other T14. (It’s not the retail experience, but the maturity one gains…)</p>

<p>That being said, the 3.3 precludes you from HYS and Boalt (without a huge hook). But a 179/3.3 will likely receive several T-14 acceptances – and perhaps one of CCN – in today’s environment. Apply in September. The 179 might even get you some money at the lower T14.</p>

<p>However, the real question is whether paying sticker at a T6? is worth it (bdm’s #1). Personally, I think not; but that is me.</p>

<p>p.s. that 179 should earn you a lot of fee waivers. Feel free to ask.</p>

5

<p>Thank you all for the replies!</p>

<p>“If I take your meaning correctly, your professors are saying that while you’d likely do fine getting into law school, your law school grades would suffer because your college courses were easy (“incredibly inflated”). Is that right? If this is their argument, I’d have to think about it some before replying but my intuition is to disagree.”</p>

<p>Yes, that is the gist of it. One of the professors I spoke to encouraged me not to attend law school on the grounds that she believed that it was not for me, in the sense that she believed that my personality did not meet the rigors that law school would require. I countered by presenting my major GPAs and the fact that I did fairly well in my courses, and she then told me that all my grades were inflated and that I should stop kidding myself. </p>

<p>I think she wanted to give me some tough love, so to speak, but honestly I’m not sure what to make of it. I had known for some time that English and Psychology were the two “easy” majors, but I felt like I put genuine work and time into doing the readings and writing the papers, and I believe that it shows. I guess it might be because I am an immigrant or I might just be dumb, but my choice of major did not feel as easy as she has made it out to be. It does make me feel like my degree and the past four years of sweat, blood, and tears feel worthless, however. I other words, I am not sure if I believe in myself anymore.</p>

<p>I’m not sure if it is the result of what she said to me, but I no longer think I am prepared for the rigors of law school. The reason why I asked about non T14 schools is twofold: I felt self conscious about my “inflated” GPA(and that law schools would laugh at my “achievements” as well) and I am no longer sure if I would do well at a T14 school to begin with. Surely, graduating from a non-T14 school at the top of the class would be better than bottom tenth of a T14, right? I would think so, but everyone on the Internet and everyone I know suggests that going anywhere but a T14 is a waste of money and time.</p>

<p>Again, thank you all for your replies. I am now less concerned about my lack of ECs and relevant work experience. I will look into some “T28” schools.</p>

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<p>As an aside, I do think this illustrates one of the lessons that’s so hard for me to learn: one negative comment can REALLY spoil somebody’s day. In second grade, I was taught that it takes something like twenty compliments to outweigh a single insult – and it’s a lesson that’s really important for folks like us to carry with us.</p>

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<p>While I don’t know your school, your major, or your courses in detail, I will tell you three reasons why I think your professor is wrong.</p>

<p>(1) Grades in law school are often not predictable going in. They’ll seem that way in RETROSPECT, of course, but there’s a high degree of arbitrariness and luck involved in law school exams – and while there’s a few kids who are markedly better or markedly worse, by and large the middle is determined pretty randomly.</p>

<p>The LSAT is not a reliable of law school grades, but if memory serves it is stronger than any other single factor, and certainly stronger than undergraduate grades. And 179 is pretty freaking awesome.</p>

<p>(2) It’s better to be at the top of, say, a T28 than the bottom 10% of a T14 class. But that’s not a useful question, because the difference in difficulty is not nearly THAT marked. It’s just not the case that you could take a bottom-5 student from Georgetown, move him to UCLA, and instantly get a valedictorian. Your class rank will likely be a little lower at a top school than at a bottom one, but recruiting also goes deeper. That trade-off is worth it. If finances and admissions are equal, go to the best-ranked school you get into.</p>

<p>(3) There’s no one personality type to be a lawyer. It’s true that you seem a little shy and insecure, at least from this forum posting, and that’s okay. Insecurity, if used right, can be a fabulous driver for success. And I had several classmates at an excellent program who were sort of that way. It’s not the “classic” lawyer archetype, but who cares?</p>

<p>The questions to ask are: (a) Will you be able to obtain a job as a practicing lawyer? (b) Will you be happy in that job? (c) Will you be content during law school itself? From what I can see of your post here, we don’t have enough information to really answer those questions well – but, of course, that means the answer might well be “Yes” to all three.</p>

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<p>"I wasn’t the most physical or the fastest receiver in the NFL, but they never clocked me on the way to the end zone. The reason nobody caught me from behind is because I ran scared. That old fear of failure again. It’s hard to go into every game with a red X on your chest, and I could feel the hair rise on the back of my neck when people chased me. [. . .]</p>

<p>People are always surprised how insecure I was. [. . .]</p>

<p>But if I have a single regret about my career standing here today, it’s that I never took the time to enjoy it. [. . .] The doubts, the struggles is who I am, and I wonder if I would have been as successful without them."</p>

<p>[Jerry</a> Rice’s Hall of Fame speech - SFGate](<a href=“Jerry Rice's Hall of Fame speech”>Jerry Rice's Hall of Fame speech)</p>

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<p>I must ask: aren’t all grades inflated these days, except for a few majors? </p>

<p>Also, your grades are inflated from Cornell. That is not exactly an easy school. </p>

<p>The 179 says to me that you are exceptionally analytical, but may not be doing the type of college level work that is akin to law school work. Legal writing is very different from English writing: it is more analytical and structured, but less creative. The 179 says “highly analytical”.</p>

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<p>Thanks, bluedevilmike, that was an excellent quote. I have really hit the slumps after graduating, at one point I was at the top of my class with top everything, just not anymore after cornell. I think that Jerry Rice’s quote if anything really shows that failure isn’t just human, it is - for many people - part of the equation for success. Up until this point, I guess I haven’t really experienced true failure - failing to meet my own expectations and goals after trying my best. Maybe this was a lesson that I needed to carry me forwards. Thank you for the comments and information about rankings as well, I now more fully understand the reasoning behind “T14 or bust.”</p>

<p>As for my motivations for becoming a lawyer and where I would like to see myself in say, 20 years, I think that the only real problem for me would be that the kind of lawyer that I would like to be really no longer exists anymore, and I kind of found out very late in the process. My favorite dramatic play of all time is “Inherit the Wind,” which was based on the Scopes Monkey Trial, a real case in which the defendant was represented by Clarence Darrow. The problem, of course, is that cases almost never go to court nowadays, and when they do, it is some lawyer with decades of courtroom experience. I can easily see myself as a lawyer, but I cannot see myself working for a biglaw firm that requires me to be in an office poring over documents and writing memos for ten hours a day. While I read very quickly and write well, I’d really like to be in the courtroom at least a few times a week.</p>

<p>Ariesathena, honestly I’m not really sure. I actually found out in senior year that grades for premed students are actually heavily deflated at Cornell. Part of the reason is that one fifth of the entering class is premed and as a result, it just isn’t feasible to give out so many high marks, and part of the reason is to weed out students who are not completely dedicated to the premed career path. A good friend of mine from my freshman year actually did much worse than I did, with a 2.4 and 2.6, and ended up becoming the President of one of the premed student groups. Personally, I was under the impression that I was failing and everyone was doing better, and I quit, among other reasons, namely, that I was a bit of a hypochondriac(not conducive to working in a hospital).</p>

<p>I’ve never really categorized whether I was analytical or creative, but I guess my LSAT states otherwise. I think that this might be because of my philosophy background, where we did lots of dense reading and talked about things like ontological reductionism.</p>

<p>As an update, I’ve decided against asking that particular professor for a recommendation, mostly because I do not think that she will be able to write a good one for me. I’m asking a professor who cares about me, but not enough to be so brutally honest. That said, this brings me to another question: How important are recommendations for law school admissions anyway? The search for recommendations was what ultimately brought me back to the forums to begin with, since they are what Cornell said I need to get on immediately.</p>

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<p>OP,</p>

<p>With your stats, you will get into multiple schools within top-14. Maybe not top 3, but you still have a strong chance at Chicago, Columbia, and NYU.</p>

<p>If you apply early in cycle, you might walk away with scholarship money at lower T-14 such as Georgetown, Northwestern, or Cornell. Another option could be that you may want to consider a top regional school (such as UCLA or U Texas) if they give you a full ride and you are interested in job opportunities in those regions.</p>

<p>I went to Cornell too and graduated with a degree in Economics and Government. Now a law student at NYU. Let me know if you have any questions about law schools. Will be glad to help.</p>

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<p>I am surprised that professors are this clueless about things, or they shouldn’t bother giving out advice to young students.</p>

<p>Law schools don’t give a crap about what your major is, how difficult vs easy it is. They only care about LSAT and cumulative GPA. </p>

<p>As for employment opportunity after law school though, your choice of major from undergrad plays a role. (engineering majors have a leg up vs humanities majors)</p>

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<p>If you want a job where you are in the courtroom several times a week from early on in your career, focus on working for the D.A. or a pubic defender’s office. You won’t ever make Biglaw kind of money, but you will have a career that seems to suit your wishes.</p>

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<p>Your English professor is an idiot. Did she go to law school? There are plenty of reasons not to go to law school but majoring in English at Cornell is not one of them. Law school is rigorous largely because of bulk, not substance. There is nothing inherently difficult in the material. The subject matter is no more challenging than what you find in many undergraduate courses, English included. I was an English major and some of my law school classes were a breeze compared to my upper level English classes. Memory and information retrieval skills are very important for law school exams. They also happen to be very important in English exams so you may have practiced exactly what you need to do well in law school.</p>

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<p>Your professors know exactly zero about law school; they simply have the required contempt for anyone(lawyers included) who isn’t a professor at a major university. So if you want to attend law school, do your cost/benefit analysis and if you decide it’s worth applying, then apply. Do not let a college professor persuade you-either way-whether you ought to apply. As cartera phrased it, there are a lot of reasons not to apply to law school, but being an English major is not one of them.<br>
After you’ve been accepted, you’ll have to do the cost/benefit analysis again based on where you were accepted, but that’s months in the future.</p>