Publically stated plans to close Penn State’s financial gap by 2025 (endowment is not legally available for general finances) include increasing enrollment, increasing retention, raising tuition, and moving more students to commonwealth campuses in order to compete with PA’s collapsing state system of area colleges (Lock Haven, Stroudsburg, Slippery Rock, Edinboro, West Chester, etc)
Penn State is already out of reach for so many families because it’s one of the most expensive public universities in the country - and they barely give merit aid. Increasing tuition certainly won’t help with their goal of increasing enrollment.
8 Likes
I agree completely – but until they see that reflected in applications and/or yield, tuition will rise. Dr Bendapudi does talk a lot about getting more scholarship funding out to more campuses and colleges, so perhaps that is going to help. I am always baffled by OOS students taking on enormous debt to attend; there have to be more affordable choices in their home state, right?
3 Likes
How about cutting the ridiculous number of useless administrators? Yale now has a 1:1 ratio of administrators to undergrads. Most colleges are bloated with these dubious positions.
4 Likes
5 VPs of various types have retired or resigned since the change in leadership, so apparently you are not the only person who thinks there’s room to save some money there.
1 Like
I hate to directly disagree with the President as I don’t know all the details, but it sure seems to me that the operating costs of the broad branch campus network (with declining enrollment coupled with growing need for investment in them to operate) is the root cause. Yet the president claims this is a strength to be invested in just seems just opposite to me. Does any other state have such a sprawling network (honest question, idk). But seems students don’t want to go to these, but throwing money to prop up anyhow will cost the flagship UP. UP is the crown jewel and should be the priority, while consolidating the branches that aren’t self sustaining. My son is down to his choice of a few schools for engineering now, and this situation sure is giving me pause right now.
3 Likes
You are not wrong about the multi-campus costs, but I think that is a pretty common model for most large states. The larger issue about UP vs the campuses is not overhead, it’s infrastructure. There simply is just about no room left at UP to put any more classrooms or (more importantly) dorm space. State College is experiencing a disturbing sprawl of high rises as enrollment climbs, but at some point those students need classroom space, etc. and the much-vaunted programs are (imho) limited to a smaller and smaller % of students. But at Behrend or Beaver or Scranton, they are putting in dorms and adding buildings, with programs that students can actually have a chance of participating in.
One of mine was Comm, before Bellasario. Yeah, they send students to the Olympics, UN, DC, Hollywood , etc. and have an award-winning TV studio. But a majority of Comm students can’t get in to those courses – there’s just too many of 'em. And UP isn’t looking to hire more tenure track faculty, I don’t think. There are a lot of adjunct and non-tenure instructors. Is thatdifferent from other Big10 schools? Probably not. Don’t know what the solution is.
1 Like
As a Pennsylvania resident and parent of college age children our experiences with Penn State have been less than stellar. Their branch campus system is a mess. Do they really need 19 branch campuses, some just minutes from each other. Most with enrollments of less than 1000 students. Some with enrollments in the 500-600 range. I can see and understand having a 5-7 branch campuses, but 19 seems like it is excessive would be an area to cut costs. They try to funnel students to those branch campuses but most don’t want to go there. Honestly, what student wants to go to one school for 2 years and then have to switch schools and learn a new campus and make new friends for the final 2 years. There is a point where it might actually be better for Penn State to admit can only be so big and stop trying to grow. Maybe they should focus on attracting their own Pennsylvania students and worry less about how big they can get. Quite honestly, they chase many high quality in state students away because they don’t really care about trying to recruit. They had over 100,000 applications this year, they don’t need their in state students… Penn State is a good school but honestly, If my kid were out of state, I wouldn’t travel to far to attend.
6 Likes
This would give me great pause also. Usually the engineering departments are self sustainable. UIUC went through this year’s ago but sorta ran itself separate from the university itself. But if their cutting costs are they cutting from a department that would directly affect your child’s education? We choose another college since things were getting bad years ago. They have seemed to fix their issues but did go through losing professors for awhile. Why not go somewhere that you don’t even have to think about it if it’s a program that is comparable?
1 Like
Important practical information about the budget plan as currently announced – all of the budget decisions are being made at the college level, by the colleges. There is no “everybody cut 2%” thing going on; there’s some fairly complicated calculation that skews the budget goal depending on a college’s enrollment and costs, etc… So a technology heavy department is not seeing the same sort of budget request as, say, philosophy.
The university has a massive amount of duplicated effort and upper management. I still think that’s likely to be where cuts fall.
The commonwealth campuses serve the individual communities in which they reside, and students who would never get into UP campus are able to further their education. Often, these tiny campuses are in depressed areas and serve lower-income students. I think Penn State’s mission of making a Penn State education available to all is good. For many students, the commonwealth campus is their only option for obtaining a Penn State degree. Many of the commonwealth campuses offer full 4 year degrees. And other commonwealth campuses are full campuses in their own right with dorms, clubs, dining halls and 4 year degrees.
I wouldn’t say that no one wants to go to the commonwealth campuses. In fact, many apply directly to the commonwealth campuses and MORE THAN HALF of all Penn State graduates started at a commonwealth campus. The 2+2 has been extremely successful. When you start at a commonwealth campus and move to UP campus in 2 years, you are moving with all of your friends from that commonwealth campus. I’ve had kids go directly to UP campus, and I’ve had kids start at the commonwealth campus. Both options have worked really well for our family. My son, who attended a commonwealth first, would have been eaten alive at UP campus. He was able to mature and learn the ropes of college life before being thrust into the huge UP environment. The “UP or BUST” mentality has really backfired on a lot of kids who underestimate the rigor and distractions ever present at UP.
The commonwealth campus competition for enrollment is not UP campus. It’s the state schools of PA. Penn State is NOT a state school (hence why tuition is so much more than at the state schools). The commonwealth campus competition are schools like Edinboro, Slippery Rock, IUP, Clarion, etc…A degree from Penn State is “worth” more than from those other schools which is why many choose to attend a Penn State campus rather than a state school.
All of that being said, some changes should be made to consolidate some campuses. I think the overwhelming mission of Penn State to be accessible to all of the people of Pennsylvania is a worthy one. But I’d like to see them consolidate some campuses and increase enrollment at those consolidated campuses before trying to increase enrollment at UP campus. UP campus is land locked and not much room to grow out. As already stated, downtown is growing UP and now there are high rises where the quaint little town used to be. We are already busting at the seams for housing needs.
5 Likes
It’s perfectly fine for for Penn State to have Commonwealth campuses. We live near one of them. I think we agree that they don’t need 19. For example, why do you need a campus in Scranton, Wilkes Barre and Hazleton. That is just a costly duplication of resources. Even at the Altoona campus (which is one of the bigger campuses )there is only a very limited number of majors that you can take completely at that campus. If that is the model Penn State wants to follow then they need to expand those options. I would disagree that our true state colleges do not have the brand reputation that Penn State has. If you want a smaller college experience, they are probably a better choice in my opinion. The problem with the way Penn State handles their 2+2 program is that are trying to funnel students who don’t want to be at a branch campus to one. Once you get sent there, you really aren’t a Penn State student (except in name only). Everything is handled through the branch campus, financial aid, scholarships, clubs etc. For example if you are an animal science major that starts at Penn State Altoona, you aren’t allowed to participate in any of the animal science clubs/activities at main campus, even if it only a 30 min drive. I guess I am a little sensitive to this because I have seen the down side of this model. It hasn’t worked for many of the students I have known.
2 Likes
I think you are painting everyone with one broad brush. My son started at a commonwealth and applied directly to it. He did not want to start at UP campus and would not have survived academically if he did. He is not alone. The commonwealth campuses are not just for students who didn’t get into UP. Many students who didn’t get into UP think they should have and therefore are upset about the commonwealth system. But in reality, Penn State puts students where they have the best chance of success. We see students here on CC ALL of the time who complain about the commonwealth system and then really really struggle at UP. My daughter was a UP or Bust type kid. She didn’t want a commonwealth. She ended up getting into UP but had she not, she would have chosen another college. No one is forced to attend a commonwealth.
It’s true many students want UP and are instead placed in a commonwealth campus instead. But those students do not meet the criteria for admission to the UP campus. The other option would be to just send them a denial completely.
If you are a student wanting Smeal business for example, getting a degree at Edinboro business is NOT the same. An employer in anywhere except Western PA would have no idea what Edinboro is. The same is true for the rest of our state school system - which is failing by the way. They just consolidated a bunch of them to make “Penn West University” which is three state school campuses spread out over PA that share resources.
It would make sense for Penn State to do something similar, and I think we agree on that. But stating that Slippery Rock University holds the same brand recognition nationally is disingenuous. While you very well may and can find a great education at some of our state schools, they are not nearly as well known nor can even touch the networking that can occur when you go to a school with over 600,000 living alumni.
I agree that Penn State can make the commonwealth campuses a more attractive option for students, but the hundreds of thousands of students who started at one will tell you - they were Penn State. They are Penn State. Their classes were the exact same curricula as the UP campus. Disparaging the entire system and the graduates from those systems (“They aren’t really Penn State”) is offensive to the MANY THOUSANDS of students who have graduated from one or have started at one. Again, MORE THAN HALF of ALL Penn State graduates started at a commonwealth.
1 Like
imo, a big reason the PASSHE schools are not doing well is the completely unnecessary Penn State sprawl.
3 Likes
That’s called the free market. Don’t blame the competitors. Become more competitive. Penn State is a top research university. Many students need that for their education and they also need name-brand recognition if they intend to look for employment outside of PA. Also, no one in California has heard of any of our state schools - so they wouldn’t attend one from out of state. Penn State is known nationally. Now, I’d never pay the OOS costs for Penn State but to each their own.
That being said, there are many majors at Penn State that would be perfectly fine to complete at a PASSHE school with no effect on your long-term career - and might even be a BETTER choice because of the lower cost of attendance.
Nursing is a big one that comes to mind. I know nursing is very competitive at Penn State and as a nurse, I’ve never really understood why. All nurses, whether completing education at a community college or any accredited university - graduate and take the exact same boards. You will not make one cent more for attending Penn State rather than nursing at a PASSHE school and most schools have the same clinical sites. It surprises many when I tell people that you MIGHT make up to $1.00 more per hour having a BSN than having your ADN. That’s it. Tens of thousands more in tuition for a BSN and you will make $1.00 more on the floor. The BSN is only good if you want to go on for a graduate degree or into management. But as a floor nurse, an ADN is perfectly acceptable. They take the EXACT same boards. I have my BSN and all it taught me is how to do research, which isn’t necessary as a floor nurse.
That’s just one example, there are others. Higher Ed is a problem nationwide.
1 Like
More related news about enrollment ----
The problems with Penn State and the state funded higher education system in Pennsylvania are quite complex. It’s easy to say that it’s all about competition but in this case it really isn’t. We have a system of state schools (Lock Haven, Slippery Rock, Mansfield, etc) that get a lot of funding from the state. At the same time we have Penn State, Pitt and Temple that also act as state schools, with state funding. Outside of Pitt’s main campus, Temple and Penn State University park, the branch campuses and the PASHE schools are all fighting for the same shrinking number of students. As a business this isn’t sustainable in the future. The answer isn’t trying to make the branch campuses bigger. The state is going to have to decide where they want to put their priorities when it comes to funding. They are already making forced cuts at the state schools. I don’t see the legislators looking very favorably on Penn State when it comes to funding if they choose to continue to cannibalize the students from the state school system just to expand their own branch campuses. I’ve had this discussion with my local legislator, so I know it’s a real issue. Our state government isn’t going to care one iota about the name recognition of Penn State when it comes to funding. As it stands now, the money the state gives all these different institutions is so diluted that it really does very little to help many of our in-state students achieve an affordable education. The ironic part is that our conservative legislators really hate the University of Pittsburgh, but they are the one school that has done more to help low income students in our state than the others combined. If you are Pell grant eligible, you can attend one of their branch campuses (and live on campus) for the price of the government loans. Between the Pell grant match and the PHEAA grant they are making it very affordable for low income students. I get that that doesn’t help everyone but it makes a difference for many students. When it comes to name recognition, our PASHE schools have every bit as much recognition as most of the other smaller state universities across the country.
5 Likes
In other states, the transfer pathway is commonly through the community colleges, rather than branches of the state university, which are intended to be schools where students stay to complete their bachelor’s degrees, rather than more expensive versions of community colleges for those taking the transfer pathway.
Pennsylvania’s mountainous geography does reduce commuting accessibility and range, so it may require more commuter schools (whether they are community colleges, PASSHE schools, or CSHE branch campuses) than would be needed in less mountainous geographies.
I grew up in western PA, near a Pitt satellite campus, a PSU one, and two PASHE schools.
Most people who went to college (and that’s not the majority of people, btw) attended a PASHE or the Pitt campus and a lot of those commuted. Lucky, smart people got in to Behrend and virtually nobody went to PSU UP. It was too expensive and too far away, even then. But PSU has defacto articulation agreements with most of the major community colleges (Harrisburg, Reading, Montgomery, for example)
Now the PASHE schools are discarding programs left and right; commuting gets harder and harder and I think it just shrinks the number of students who go to college at all. PA can rename and consolidate all they want, but someone trying to make the finances work isn’t helped by that. The PA legislature is a hot mess of bad priorities and revenge governance.
Agree, name recognition is not what PennState makes it out to be.
2 Likes
Temple and Penn State have similar programs for Pell grant students that you mentioned about Pitt. Also unless you are under $40,000 in family income the Pell grant and match still leave a long way to go. For a Pell grant student the state schools lower tuition results in a lower PHEAA grant unless you are at the maximum Pell Grant. So the tuition gap is reduced when comparing the PASHE and a Penn State. Penn State’s alumni voting block I think will keep money flowing in. The issue on cost is really room and board driven for all these schools so putting campuses near where students live makes sense. Families with income over $75,000 are the ones who get hit with the high cost issue. No or little aid at any of these schools including the PASHE system.