snap! sorry @TheOldTimer didn’t see your post before I posted.
Princeton reports that 4% of its students are English majors (https://registrar.princeton.edu/university_enrollment_sta/CDS_2016-2017.pdf). At Brown, it’s a whopping 4.3% (https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/institutional-research/sites/brown.edu.about.administration.institutional-research/files/uploads/Brown%20CDS_2016-2017_Final_1.pdf).
Like virtually everything at Princeton, the English department is objectively quite strong. There’s plenty of theater, at McCarter and the Lewis Center. In fact, you can earn a Theater certificate (the equivalent of a minor, as I’m sure OP knows) and there’s a Theater track within the English major. That said, you can major in theater and get an MFA and doctorate at Brown.
Unless OP is realistically considering a career in theater, though, if I were him, I’d count my blessings and make my peace with getting a diploma and education at Princeton, where undergraduates are paramount and there are literally thousands of students who aren’t athletes or engineers. Many people would be very grateful for the opportunity to study there.
Hey guys, I very much appreciate all your responses. I realize that my point about Princeton’s English program may have been unfair; like many of you have pointed out, it objectively is very strong, and just because Princeton is traditionally more well-known for STEM fields doesn’t detract from that in any way. I apologize for throwing that admittedly weak point into the mix – my qualms are with the culture, not with the academia.
@DeepBlue86 points out that there are plenty of theater opportunities, and I’ve involved myself with the Lewis Center as much as I can. The actors involved in these productions are really wonderful people, and I’m sure if I continue at Princeton I’ll only like them more. Still, Princeton is hardly known for its theater program in the same way that Brown is. Brown also has the opportunity for double majoring, where Princeton relegates you to one major, which would be a great way to focus on both English and theater. Princeton does have certificate programs, yes, but they’re worth notably less than a minor; faculty members of the school have mentioned movements attempting to remedy this, but I doubt these will happen in my time there. In short, I’ve availed myself to as many of the theater and improv groups that I can at Princeton and have enjoyed myself so far, but I feel as though I would learn more from Brown’s theater programs. (This may be a moot point, but Brown’s theater program also has graduates like Emma Watson and John Krasinski of ‘The Office’ fame, which makes me believe that Brown’s alumni network would be far more beneficial for pursing acting than Princeton’s.)
@collegemom3717 observes that many of the students she knows aren’t involved in eating clubs whatsoever. Many of the upperclassmen I’ve met, particularly those involved in the theater scene, aren’t involved either. I have no doubt that there are plenty who choose to avoid the street. My problem lies in that so much of Princeton social life is dominated by these clubs that are, at their core, elitist and financially exclusive. My friend involved in the bickering process at Ivy was telling me today about how she had to rank all applicants on a scale of 1 to 5 based on their personalities, and how the steep $10,000 admission fee to Ivy prohibits many kids who attend the school on financial aid from ever applying. The trouble with these clubs is that they breed a social-climbing culture, where many students who subscribe to these pseudo-frats define themselves by what ‘tier’ their eating club is. I understand fully that these clubs can be avoided, of course, but the sheer amount of students who make their weekend-ly pilgrimage to The Street suggest that those who abstain from eating club culture are mainly exceptions to the rule. So while I understand that avoidance is a perfectly viable means of staying away from all this, wouldn’t transferring to a school without all the eating club mumbo-jumbo be a better solution?
^Despite all these negativity towards the eating clubs, I don’t hate them or anything. I admittedly would probably consider looking at some of the less-exclusive ones were I to stay. I just think they’re severely flawed and create a needlessly socially competitive environment, and would rather be at a school without such a system.
This post is already looking longer than my original, so I’ll close by saying: I know many of you have pointed out that Princeton is a great school, and it is. I know a teenager whining about being at one of the best schools in the world isn’t particularly compelling, and you’re right. Like I said, this all could be anxiety of freshman year, or, as @collegemom3717 suggests, me thinking that the grass is greener at the other Ivy. (Don’t quite understand your bird metaphor, but I think that’s the gist of it.) I appreciate the bluntness with which many of you have encouraged me to accept my surroundings – I may entirely just be searching for some ‘perfect school’ that doesn’t exist. I’m happy enough at Princeton, but I feel that I could be happier at Brown.
I do, however, wonder if you think that there is a substantial difference in the student cultures of Brown and Princeton. I also wonder if there is really as big a difference between the theater programs of Princeton and Brown as I’ve said; I strongly believe there is, but I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
Last things: @TheOldTimer, I’ve actually been doing pretty well academically so far, but I haven’t ventured into any science-core classes yet. Should I be worried?
@Publisher Thanks mate, this is something I’ve thought a lot about. It’s not so much that I’m unhappy at Princeton as much as I feel that I could be happier than Brown, but you’re definitely right in that I consider a few other schools as long as I’m dusting off the Common App again.
@Studious99 I wish my father were a TiggerDad – Tigger would be way more laid-back about this transfer stuff!
Cheers to everyone who’s read this much concentrated teen angst in one sitting. Thank you for your comments!
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@Ben_Swolo : I admire your passion for theater. Although I don’t know the feasibility of transferring from one school to another, I am sure if you contact theater faculty members in Brown, they will be more than happy to discuss in detail with you. Being a Ivy student does have some advantages, we already know that by first-hand experience. It is easy to get from Princeton to Brown. You can take NJ transit to Metropark Station and transfer to an Amtrak train. There are big discounts for student tickets. Once you arrive at Providence, it is a $5 Uber ride to campus. The whole trip is about 5 hours. You could arrange it during spring break to get first hand information.
I can tell you for sure there are big differences in student cultures of Brown and Princeton. In Brown, Fraternities have such a small presence that nobody seems to care. You will hear super-rich complaint about dorm condition. The big dinner hall is called Ratty. (actually my child always eats at other places with its friends) Those people who believe they are better than others have all gone to HYPSM. It just happens that my child hate people like that. When I asked my child “why didn’t you apply to Harvard”, my child said “I don’t want to be surrounded by snobbish people”.
In Harvard or Princeton, you have the advantage of meeting Chinese President Xi Jinping’s daughter without knowing it. (She had studied psychology and English and lived under an assumed name, her identity known only to a limited number of faculty and close friends – less than ten). In Brown, commoners like us live happily without acutely being reminded of the social hierarchy that exists, and where they are in it based on their club affiliation (in place like Princeton). Academically our experience is that Brown is second to none. Of course, it depends on departments. We are pre-meds and have a clear goal.
Eating clubs in Princeton are only for upperclassman. If you can ignore them and get your degree in Princeton, I am sure Brown will welcome you to continue with advanced degrees. That might be another good option. In any case, I believe you will be successful in your life. You are among the few people I know who really have a passion for something.
@Ben_Swolo: Consider Brown, Yale & Northwestern. Obviously Brown offers the most relaxed atmosphere among the three & that may have indicated to some that the academic pressure in addition to the culture at Princeton were not to your liking.
@Ben_Swolo: Just reread your initial post in this thread. Realized that your choices were among Princeton, Williams & Northwestern after being rejected by Brown.
What did you like & not like about Williams College & Northwestern University ?
Brown may accept you since sacrificing a Princeton degree to attend Brown may be the ultimate LOCI.
Thanks for the additional posts, @Ben_Swolo, @Publisher & @TheOldTimer. I don’t find Princeton quite as snobby nor Brown quite as ‘common’ as @TheOldTimer - but that’s just a matter of opinion, and there is no doubt that the two have a different ‘feel’. @TheOldTimer’s suggestion of a current re-visit (with the eyes of an enrolled college student vs the eyes of a HSer) and @Publisher encouraging you to review the decision factors for your other choices are really helpful suggestions.
I will add a third: try and think (as objectively as possible) about why Brown might have rejected you, when it’s peer schools did not. Obviously, your application was very strong from top to bottom. So what in your application might have said to Brown, ‘this one isn’t ours’? I know that all the tippy-tops have to turn down 90+% of their applicants, but for students who get into some of the ones they apply to but not others, it is often possible to see ways that the ‘fit’ was not as strong for one as the other. If you apply to transfer, thinking that through could help how you position yourself.
Also think through what your plan is if Brown says ‘no’ again (statistically, by far the most likely outcome). If Princeton really, really just isn’t for you, what are your next 3 choices? you should apply to all of them. Or is it that if it’s not Brown there isn’t really an ‘almost as good’?
Again, all of this is thinking exercises: you have to apply, be accepted and sell your choice to the people who are paying for this,.
@Ben_Swolo : I just realize that the deadline for transfer is March 1st. I agree with @collegemom3717 that you need to figure out why you were rejected. I think demonstrated interest was one of the factors. Even if you were admitted last year, I believe you won’t attend. All my child’s friends who are now in Princeton were rejected by Brown. If you can’t demonstrate that you will attend if admitted this time, you might be rejected again. Being a Princeton student is like a double-edged sword. You might want to go to Brown to meet faculty members before you submit your application. These days a note from a faculty member could make a huge difference.
Speaking of eating clubs, is “meat” eating club still there? I have heard that joke long time ago, it is probably gone now. I think most people probably never heard of eating clubs before they choose to attend Princeton. These days “prestige” blindsides a lot of people. Stories like Madison Holleran continue to happen every semester somewhere at elite colleges.
I have multiple friends at Brown that turned down Princeton, and they are more than happy with their decisions.
Consider that, as much as any other student there, you are Princeton, @Ben_Swolo. If you stay, make the school your own.
“I have multiple friends at Brown that turned down Princeton, and they are more than happy with their decisions.”
This kind of statement doesn’t really help since, I’m sure, there are many who have turned down Brown for Princeton and equally happy with their decision. Just because you have “multiple friends” who are happier at Brown doesn’t mean that the OP would be assured of happiness at Brown even if he/she can transfer successfully. It’s a common psychological phenomenon for freshmen to feel that the other side of the fence is greener when the stress of trying to acclimate to a totally new environment hits them. OP needs to think about this very objectively and critically, i.e., is it Princeton per se or the stress of adapting to the new environment?
^^^And again, all this is moot, unless OP gets an admission offer from Brown. I think it is very unlikely, since Brown and Princeton admit very different students.
OP, you might want to contact the faculty members in this list (https://www.brown.edu/academics/theatre-arts-performance-studies/faculty) to see what they can do for you. I think using your Princeton email address will generate interests. You said you have been doing pretty well academically so far. That is going to help also. Good luck.
To everyone, let’s try to be helpful here. We don’t know if OP will be happy in Brown but it is pretty clear OP is not happy in Princeton. Adding in Tiger Dad, things are even more complicated. Without academic difficulties, it is clear the issue is “fit”.
@Ben_Swolo : Read this (http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2017/02/deans-date-causes-unnecessary-stress), and you will know you are not alone. You just had your first Dean’s Date. Those people around you pretend they are fine but most likely they are under stress too. It is like Stanford duck syndrome. Take it easy. You are fine.
I have no intention to bump this thread. But it seems that some people are not convinced that eating clubs are the center of social life in Princeton. Please read http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2013/07/streets-take-on-the-street It states “The eating clubs are the center of social life on campus, and for many upperclassmen they become homes and families. And it’s not very often people get to pick their families, so do your research. Best of luck, kids.” … Unfortunately my understanding is that the way they pick their “families” is heavily dependent on someone’s “family” income, not what they like to eat.
At Brown, my understanding is that there is no “center of social life on campus”. Students are free to explore and join the numerous clubs which fit their interests. If you are interested in eating “Galbi” (Korean beef short ribs) like my child, you can go with your friends to Den Den Cafe Asiana within walking distance from campus. Authentic dishes. Definitely comparable to those Korean restaurants in and abound NYC where they welcome you by saying “ann-yeong-haseyo” (Hello in Korean, we are not Korean). BTW, there is no authentic Korean restaurant around Princeton. (if you know one, please definitely let me know.)
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The people who turn down Princeton for Brown are a small minority and most likely are kids with an extremely strong affinity for Brown so of course they would be very happy with their decision. Cant make any generalization out of that tiny, self-selected sample group.
@Ben_Swolo, get down to Friend Center 101 next Wed (7 March) @5pm- Fintan O’Toole is speaking on “George Bernard Shaw & the Uses of Celebrity”. Might as well enjoy the highlights while you are there!
According to http://arts.princeton.edu/academics/theater/theater-courses/ , 29 courses are offered in Princeton under “Theater”. According to https://www.brown.edu/about/administration/institutional-research/factbook/courses , 86 courses are offered at Brown under “Theatre Arts & Performance Studies”. It looks like Theater major at Brown has more choices. @Ben_Swolo is correct.
I wouldn’t do it. Your college experience is what you make of it, and too many kids would KILL to get into Princeton. I think the Juilliard idea is also ridiculous, because you want to study English. I actually have a friend who’s brother goes to Princeton, and he loves it there. I would give it more time. You also need a practical degree. I actually watched a video regarding a woman who attempted Tufts for Theater, and now she’s selling all of her clothes to pay off debt, because her job doesn’t pay enough. I’m not saying you can’t be successful, but I really don’t suggest that the amount of Theater courses is the reason you switch out of the #1 school in the United States.
This thread is going off the rails quickly and not addressing OP’s concerns at all.
@nrtlax33 was the first person to raise academic issues, which is not something OP talked about at all, so I think that topic should be dropped. Period.
@collegemom3717 appears to be a Princeton fan, but the fact that she has a different impression of its social scene is not responsive to what OP is trying to grapple with.