Let the game begin!

Parents Forum
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<p>"D is a very strong mind girl. Since all her standard test scores were achieved in one setting w/o any study, she believes she is the top of the top."</p>

<p>I haven't seen any evidence that colleges care whether the scores were achieved in one sitting. I know that my alma mater, Harvard, does not care.</p>

<p>Your D sounds overconfident, and I fear that will hurt her in her college apps and interviews. Reminds me of a whom I interviewed for Harvard. The student had exceptionally high scores, high rank, and already had been accepted to another Ivy.</p>

<p>The student gave one word answers in the interview, and when I asked if there was anything that I had not asked the student about that the student wished to elaborate upon, the student said, "no," and stood up and ended the interview at the half-hour mark, even though I normally interviewed students for an hour. My guess is that the student assumed they were a shoo-in for admission, but the student didn't get an acceptance from my alma mater.</p>

<p>Back to your situation: You are the parent and presumably will be funding all or most of your D's college education and her college applications. Since you hold the wallet, that gives you a lot of power, which can prevent your D for applying in a way that either leaves her with no acceptances or leaves her with no acceptances that you can afford.</p>

<p>If you can afford the schools she's applying to or if she's likely to get scholarships to attend those schools, then there's nothing wrong with her applying to those top schools. Still, she needs safety schools. She also needs financial safeties -- schools that she knows she will gain acceptance to, can afford, and would enjoy attending.</p>

<p>It's great that she's applying for outside money, but it is extremely difficult to get outside scholarships to pay, for instance, a $30 k a year gap that may exist if she gets into top schools that provide only need-based aid. Typically, students have the best chances of getting excellent merit scholarships by being at the top of the applicant pool at schools that offer excellent merit aid. For instance, students who are good enough to get into places like Harvard, have the best chances of getting stellar merit aid from schools like Duke, Emory and Wake Forest.</p>

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<p>Perhaps instead of starting with the idea that she has 8 slots to fill, instead suggest she imagines she has an unlimited number of applications and she should research which schools she would apply to in that situation. Once she has a list like that, she can cut it back, taking out the schools that are prohibitively expensive, ones she doesn't like as much as others, etc, until she ends up with a final list. Hopefully, then that final list might include some schools she likes and which offer merit aid, as well as some highly ranked schools that she likes simply because they are highly ranked. At the moment, it seems like she isn't really even willing to look around, because she is so focussed only on those highly ranked schools and how to maximize her chances of going to one of them.</p>

<p>The financial situation is what it is. Tell her what you can afford. Tell her there is no more money from you, no matter how great the school or how much she wants it. Better to be clear now than to have a lot of acceptances at schools she can't attend.</p>

<p>As for making her realistic about her chances of acceptance, I don't think there is a lot you can do. You can say:
- That list she has at the moment is not a sensible list, it is a massive gamble. A GC may encourage her to apply to top schools, but a good one will not encourage her to apply only to top schools. That is why even the very best students on this site are posting threads about safety and match schools, because everyone knows massive gambles don't always come off.
- Even people with really top scores get rejected, some of them get rejected at all the top schools. You may be a big fish in your small pond, and imagine yourself to be the best thing ever, but it's a very big world out there, and there are a lot of big fish around (and some of them play the oboe!)
- Perhaps she will be accepted to every school on her list, perhaps she won't. Admissions at the top ranked schools are capricious and not based solely on high scores.
- Having a safety school on your list makes the whole process an awful lot less stressful. There is no shame in having a safety school, or indeed some match schools, since she is also lacking those. It doesn't mean you think you are not good enough for the more highly ranked schools.
- Going to a school that is not at the top of the rankings is fine, as long as you like and can afford it. Going to college is in itself a great privilege. </p>

<p>But I am sure she already knows those things if she has done any research at all about the college applications process. If she doesn't want to listen, that is up to her, she lives, dies, spends a year working in Starbucks while she reapplies, by her decision. All you can do is back off, hope she comes to those realizations by herself, and if she doesn't and it all goes wrong, be there to pick up the pieces in April. I think by keeping on about it now, you will probably just make her more stubborn.</p>

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<p>Make an excel spreadsheet. List her schools of choice and the average COA. Deduct the $ amount you are limited to offering her. Be realistic with that amount - don't list the absolute maximum, list a comfortable amount for your family. Show the balance of $ that will have to be made up with aid (need based or merit based). Let her (and you) see the $ amount that has to be offered by the school - maybe that will make things seem a little realistic. </p>

<p>I don't mean to be offensive, but quite honestly it sounds like your D is in need of a little attitude adjustment. The application process needs to be a team effort - you and her. It's up to her if you're willing to take what she is dishing out in terms of refusing to list other schools on her list.</p>

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<p>Well, DD actually has made an excel spread sheet exactly as AB said. She found all the COA and what merit aids are available at each school. I mean DD did alot of research to come to her list. </p>

<p>Talking to my wife yesterday and we realized that we may have left a wrong impression to GC and several key teachers at HS. We may have brag a little too much - that we will be able to meet any and all financial need. We really could but it means really hard time for everyone else.</p>

<p>So, we will go back to talk to GC and seek his input and help. </p>

<p>In the mean time, it will be hard to turn DD around. Because we did tell her what we have. My eye balls just lit up when I talked about she getting into Harvard. I did a lot of irresposible talks about 6 months ago, before the reality hits. A lot of this is my fault.</p>

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<p>There is a way, but it's pretty harsh. (I don't really know how to soften the news.) Everyone who applys to those top schools is in the top of his/her class so she will be average in that area. She may be outstanding with regards to the general public, but that won't be the case with those schools. Also, what are her EC's? </p>

<p>You might want to show her the chances of her not getting admitted (rather than being admitted) and the stats of those people who are admitted. (It's not wise to compare herself with her classmates because they may have a hook about which she does not know.) Remember that some people with those same stats were also denied. Then show her the number of people who received merit aid. (For some of those schools, that number may be 0, 1, or 2 out of the entire incoming class.) Stress the need for a safety. Every year, there is usually one or two students on these boards who applied only to top tier schools and were denied by all of them. </p>

<p>Your daughter sounds outstanding. She may be accepted. However, also remember that she might not.</p>

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<p>Imagine how hard it will be if she is fortunate enough to get accepted and you have to tell her she can't go because of finances.</p>

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<p>DadII--you say your daughter has top scores. What are they? Does she actually have a 4.0 GPA (unweighted) and a set of 750s-800s and a 34-36? Does she have regional to national level activities? That's what it takes to be a relatively sure bet at Stanford and the other Ivies, and those don't give merit aid in any case. </p>

<p>From your minor grammar errors, I'm assuming your daughter is Asian. That would be to her advantage in some schools and her disadvantage in others. Has she taken that in account in her planning? </p>

<p>What does she want to major in? Some majors at some schools justify larger loans than at others.</p>

<p>There are schools--most of them near the top of USNWR Tier 2 (i.e., the schools ranked from 50-100)--that offer lots of merit aid to well-qualified students. If your daughter plans to go to graduate school, those schools are excellent choices.</p>

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<p>You mention "everybody else". Are there siblings? An extended family? Even teenagers - prone to thinking themselves the center of the world - usually understand if what they want will cause others to really suffer.</p>

<p>And I don't mean the BMW and the European vacations LOL. You may have a hard time convincing her if that's what prevents her going to Harvard but hey, good luck.</p>

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<p>Dad - You are working your way into a bind, but, it's not too late to rectify the situation. Lots of kids assume that one way or another their parents WILL come up with the $45K/year - and some of them do. But many of them end up transferring to state U year two when the money has run out. Some of them end up with no options when parents can't even pay the first bill, or suddenly balk at the size of the loan they're looking at.</p>

<p>Saving face doesn't mean much if it leads you to the poor house. It just seems to me that a student in the bottom 25% of the "top" colleges, who is not a URM, development/legacy admit or athlete AND believes she will get nice merit aid is just plain wrong.</p>

<p>Case in point - if you looked at my son's HS class you would see a couple of kids who are clearly in the bottom 25% of the HYSPMIT stats, who, miraculously, got in! What they wouldn't know is that one was an outstanding athlete and legacy and the other is a URM with a BIG development leg up. (And both are paying full price - ouch.) So it doesn't mean squat for my kid!</p>

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<p>DadII - I think the title you chose for this thread is very appropriate. "Let the game begin". You certainly had that right. But like any other game, it is important that all the players know and understand the rules. This includes both you and your daughter.</p>

<p>First rule - make sure all the players understand what the financial situation from the start of he game. The earlier this is understood, the easier the rest of the game becomes. Preferably this takes place in middle school - or as soon after as possible. We will pay ____ for your college. Anything over that you have to cover (merit aid - scholarships - loans). Whatever is agreed upon must be adhered to everyone involved.</p>

<p>Second Rule - be realistic about where the applicant stands. Don's listen to a lot of rumors or hearsay about who did/got what. Do the research and see how the applicant compares to past admits at the selected schools. If they are not at the top - merit aid becomes dubious. Just because the applicant is tops in their HS, does not mean that they are tops for the selected college. Don't get carried away with local hype - remember they are now competing on a national scale. You can not believe the competition at the top schools.</p>

<p>Third Rule - present the applicant in the best light possible. All of the merit applicants at the top schools will have top GPAs, test scores, ECs, recommendations etc. Does your applicant have something that makes them stand out from that group. If so make sure that becomes a theme and is presented properly.</p>

<p>Fourth Rule - don't count on receiving large sums from outside scholarships. Most of the serious money will come from the school in question. There are exceptions to this rule - but they are few and far between.</p>

<p>Fifth Rule - Weigh your sources of info carefully. Ask people who give merit or scholarship advice, what they have achieved in this area. I have found that too many of these people just talk about what they think they have heard. Listen to people who have been there and achieved success in this area.</p>

<p>Sixth Rule - Remember it can be done and is done every year quite successfully. In order to have success you have to understand and play by the rules. Unfortunately most people don't discover this until the game is just about over. Good luck and I am sure that everything will work out for the best.</p>

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<p>Like a number of the other posters here, it seems to me that the number one issue here is financial. Have you calculated your approximate EFC? After doing that, you have to ask how much overlap there will be between the first and second child in college. In the overlap years, each college will only expect you to pay half of the EFC to that school.</p>

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<p>I could not agree MORE with Weenie. Dad II, the past is the past, and you should not dwell on the past "mistakes" or ... misunderstandings. The past that could happen to your fanily is for your DD to also make a few adjustments and turn into DD II and allow for your mutual positions to reconcile. This is far from impossible as both of you are working towards a meeting of the mind based on reality as opposed to dreams and misplaced expectations. </p>

<p>At the end of the road, you and and your daughter will face a stack of letters: plenty of acceptances, plenty of arcane letters detailing the financial aid, and plenty of hard choices to make. At that stage, the GC, the teachers, and all the details that seem so important today will be reduced to absolutely NOTHING. It will be you and your daughter! And in fact that what it should be TODAY. Look at the GC as a forwarder of information and not much more! </p>

<p>My take on all of this is that it is not as nebulous as you may think. Once you start moving items from the category of idle speculation to the category of verifiable information, you'll start to feel better and will be able to move forward without all the second-guessing and self-imposed torture. </p>

<p>There are many items that can be clarified and help you evaluate your situation. Since you are worried about the finances --who isn't?-- please note that you can figure your FEDERAL EFC to the penny by following the published governmental formulas. Yes, to the penny! This wil establish the mimimum you and your daughter will have to contribute. This figure will be the leading one at the schools using the FM (possibly your safety school.) Since it is obvious your D will apply and probably be accepted at several schools that use the Profile or IM, search the web pages of the school for information regarding self-help and expected summer earnings. Most of the super selective schools expect their students to contribute to their education. This means that your D will have to contribute in ADDITION to your family's EFC. This amount usually vary between 2,000 to 6,000 per annum. This request is pretty standard and one that should not come as a ... surprise. Again, with adequate research, you should be able to define your financial contributions and help you evaluate the financial safeties and financial impossibilies. Of course, by now, you know that the "not a penny" will be ... impossible. OTOH, european vacation will remain a possibility, unless the dollar continues its slide against the Euro. </p>

<p>Also, I think that it may beneficial for you and your D to consider extending your list of potential schools beyond that infamous 8 schools. The lengthiest part of applying is not filling the application but gathering and preparing the information. After reaching a certain number, much can be recycled: essays can be tweaked, letters of recommendations can be reproduced by teachers, transcripts are easy to send out and so are standardized scores. And lastly, many schools wave the application fees for online applications and many schools accept the common application. </p>

<p>In so many words, do not dwell on the past. Go to Office Depot and buy a bunch of folders to help you sort the school information and START working on those darn applications, especially the scholarship applications. The deadlines have a tendency of coming much faster than expected. </p>

<p>Be optimistic but realistic!</p>

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<p>^ Xiggi makes a really important point above, and it's important for all parents of prospective college students. </p>

<p>When it comes time to write that first big tuition check (to say nothing of the 8th big check) you are all by your lonesome. None of your kids' friends, none of your nosy neighbors, no guidance counselors, no valedictorians, and no one on CC ;) is there to help you find the money.</p>

<p>Just something to keep in mind.</p>

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<p>I think that both Xiggi and weenie make a good point that should be considered by everyone. Just keep in mind that in select cases there is an alternative - not having to write that big check. Not knowing the particulars about the op's daughter - I obviously don't know if they may be in a position to achieve that result. I do know that if you play it right, plan it right and things fall into place - it is achievable. Not easy and obviously not guaranteed - but with proper research you can get a pretty good feel for the probability of success - and it feels great when it happens.</p>

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<p>DadII-</p>

<p>You write, "I did a lot of irresponsible talks about 6 months ago, before the reality hits. A lot of this is my fault."</p>

<p>I think you start out by telling her exactly that. You apologize and you tell her that, in your pride and excitement, you got carried away, and you realize now that you and she need to be more careful, for everyone's sake.So now it's time to start over with a better sense of what the limitations might be. She HAS to have safety schools (financial safeties as well as academic safeties).</p>

<p>Best of luck to you all.</p>

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<p>I'd also like to say DadII that you are not alone in thinking that the sky would be the limit for your bright D and that schools would be knocking at your door begging her to come to their campus. MANY of us thought the same. In the real world, that happens for some people, but more many, many very bright, very responsible, very involved students IT JUST DOESN"T work out that way! Yes, it's a bit of a shock, but it's better to realize it, deal with what you have to work with (which in your D's case truly does sound good - she's a bright student and you have according to what you've said, a decent ability to contribute to her education costs.) She can still likely be in a GREAT position at many schools - but better to face the music now and be realistic - be prepared for MANY scenarios!</p>

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<p>DadII,</p>

<p>I would take a look at the scatterplots in the following cite. Arcadia High
School is a large suburban high school in Southern California with a large Asian population. For each university applied to by their students, the school makes a scatterplot with SAT scores on one side and GPA on the other axis. In the body of the chart are red or green Xs which tell you whether the student was accepted or not.</p>

<p>Take each school to which your D is interested in applying and see where she would fit into the chart. See if she is in a sea of green or a sea of red.</p>

<p>That's an eye opener!</p>

<p>Example: Harvard: 20 applied, 1 accepted.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.arcadiachineseparents.org/college.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.arcadiachineseparents.org/college.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>DMD77 wrote: DadII--you say your daughter has top scores. What are they? Does she actually have a 4.0 GPA (unweighted) and a set of 750s-800s and a 34-36? Does she have regional to national level activities? The answers are: yes, yes, and yes. </p>

<p>One of her science teachers told D that she is the best student the teacher has ever had. Now, this teacher who has taught for 30 years has had one student who was one of the "USA Today's HS first team". That young lady went on to get into Harvard pre-med. </p>

<p>I am extremely pround of my D's achievements. However, paying for her to attend the like of Harvard could make our life very difficult. </p>

<p>Again, alot of these are my fault. We appreciate your comments and tips. Talked to wife again and I think we will be alright. If D gets into Harvard or Yale, we will have only smiles on our face.</p>

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<p>Dad II, I'm sorry your daughter (and maybe you?) are convinced that it is unthinkable that a top student would consider attending anything other than a very top-ranked school when attending those schools will "make life very difficult" for her family. Just in case she thinks there are no other good students at alternative schools, my son is a fabulous student who chose to attend a merit-awarding top-20 university on a full tuition/fees merit award. And we "have only smiles on our face" that he is such a sensible and considerate young man.</p>

<p>The other problem here is that your daughter is so confident that she will have the choice of attending one of those schools. One of my son's friends found out that acceptances to high-Ivys and their ilk are guaranteed for no one. Here is his snapshot: 2370 SAT I, 800 on three SAT II; national AP scholar at 11th grade; four post-Calc BC math classes at university in 11th and 12th grade (highest grades in the classes); three physics courses at univ (highest grades); Intel semi-finalist; accomplished violinist, has played in adult civic orchestra since 9th grade, and All-state orchestra; 3.95 unweighted gpa; many first place science and math awards at regional and state competitions; part of championship quiz bowl team; member of regional semi-finalist Science Knowledge Bowl team for three years; won competitive scholarship to do summer research at famous overseas Institute. I have known this young man since he was in the third grade; he is well-spoken, has a lot of friends, has never caused any trouble, etc. so there are no Big Negatives to explain his rejections to Princeton and Stanford. Acceptances and rejections to such schools seem almost arbitrary to me. You must make your daughter aware of the possibility, if not probability, that she will be part of the 90% of students who think they have a good chance, but get the skinny envelopes in the spring, nonetheless.</p>

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Here is what I did: I insisted that my daughter apply to our state university system, where she was guaranteed admission and which I knew would be affordable for us. </p>

<p>From there, I let her do what she wanted, but I made it quite clear that financial aid was essential. She seemed to want to apply to schools that were reaches for her, and she was not happy to hear me express any kind of doubt as to her chances. </p>

<p>As it happened, she got into her reach colleges and was also offered a workable financial aid package at one -- so for her, it worked out. If she hadn't gotten the financial aid she wanted, or had not got into those schools, she would be at a state university campus -- along with many of the smartest kids from her high school. She would have survived, as they all do.</p>

<p>The point is -- if a kid is headed toward a fall, then sometimes that has to be their own experience. As a parent I would not have been upset if my daughter ended up at her safety -- it would have been easier on us financially and she would have been closer to home, so if it had come down to that, I would have been satisfied.</p>

<p>You posted early on: "it looks like this: Yale, Stanford, WashU, Cornell, ? , ?, ?,, state U." Since "state U" is in the mix, that might be all the safety you need -- if she is guaranteed admission in your state. Just understand that it is very possible for your daughter to end up with state U as her only option. Obviously in many states that isn't a bad choice at all.</p>

<p>One more thing: try to get your daughter to apply EA (non binding early action) at one of her colleges, such as Yale. If she gets a rejection or deferral, it will be an early lesson in reality -- and that will come early enough that there will be time to add one or more safeties to her list.</p>