This forum has opened my eyes to new ways of thinking about my kids’ college prospects. I’ve come to accept that prestige may be out of reach financially for my family. Happily, this reality is easier to embrace as I realize the many of the outcomes I value from a college experience are not exclusive to high-priced private schools. What were the most valuable take-aways from your college experience?
I’ll start with my top four takeaways that I bet my kid can get even if she has to “settle” for the state flagship.
Exposure to leading thinkers and their ideas, an appreciation/love/thirst for knowledge for its own sake
Relationships with peers whose strengths/talents inspired me and whose diverse life experiences made me more worldly in the best sense of the word
A maturing worldview that improved my judgement and helped develop my ability to make choices/prioritize, absent institutional guidance (e.g. who I chose to surround myself with, what classes/curiosities to pursue, what leisure activities to spend money on, and many other life-defining decisions)
Audacity to buck cultural/parental expectations in my career choice, take risks
I agree prestige will grant you access. On the other hand, the most successful and most-gratified people I know opened their own doors.
Good question and topic. Attending a large public university allowed me to be exposed to different types of people and I learned to “fend for myself” and work out classes, roommates, dorms, etc, At large schools, no one hands you anything and you are on your own figuring it out which is good preparation for life. My school has a huge alumni presence and they hire other kids who went to the university because they feel as if they know what they are about. I also feel as if I had a lot of freedom…freedom to make good/bad decisions, freedom to sink or swim. There are prestigious schools then there are schools like mine where a degree opens doors in a different way.
OP your list almost exactly like my takeaways from attending an elite U. I would call your list the “maturity/growth” components, but from a purely practical standpoint, I also learned how to think critically, and then express my solution in both written and spoken word. These skills have proven very helpful in my chosen career, and I’ve learned are not to be taken for granted b/c shockingly, many other graduates end up without them.
However, despite being the product of two elite U’s, I firmly believe that much of success is on the individual. I know plenty of classmates who haven’t made much of their degrees, as well as those who are wildly successful. Opportunity is laid out at everyone’s feet when they enter college and then, the job market, it is up to each person to grab the ring, regardless of pedigree.
^^ “…shockingly, many other graduates end up without them.”
Agreed! The critical thinking piece, along with written and spoken communication, pays off in bigger paychecks as well as greater satisfaction with life overall. Advocating for yourself through effective communication is under-rated, particularly compared to STEM. But fortunately, the opportunities to hone that skill abounds in and out of college, elite and non-elite.
My D is going to a good out of state public with a full tuition merit scholarship, not an elite, and is getting a great education in her field as well as in life. I did not realize how sheltered she was until she left and had to start taking care of herself. I also learned to let go and allow her to make her own decisions. She is taking advantage of every opportunity that comes her way. She has had 2 internships and a 3rd one lined up. Research opportunities. Travel. She is getting a great education and will be very successful in her career. I call that a great value!
Flagship U’s include elite students. Some are more elite than many known private U’s, or even if they do not have the recognition, offer better academics and peer groups. You have to realize that the top private schools cannot accommodate the students deserving an elite education. That is where the state flagships come in. Through Honors Programs/colleges they give an elite education. The academics can be equal to or better than at some elite schools. Some flagships have the prestige as well.
Then there is the atmosphere. My home state flagship is Wisconsin (Madison). Top rated programs in many fields plus an excellent Honors program. Add to that the liberal atmosphere and encountering a diverse student body (from different areas and backgrounds- race isn’t the only diversity criteria) and the experience can be immense. I was from a Madison suburb and wanted to leave town bit couldn’t afford to. The world came to me. My son and I both chose majors with top twenty or less ranked grad schools so we could benefit from those while undergrads.
I’m willing to bet those in the sheltered world of many elite colleges get some excellent academics but also miss out on a lot of learning outside the classroom. It pays to be in a world with enough like you to form a good peer group but also encounter those with radically different lifestyles/views. At least at Wisconsin students do not march to the same drummer- or even in the same march.
I could go on and on. Finances (and gender) made other elite schools out of reach for me. When we researched for son he wouldn’t even look at some schools and wouldn’t apply to others. Too liberal as well as a STEM person perhaps. Perhaps he would have benefited from the more intense overall school atmosphere, but he got intensity in his classes. Who knows- he was two years younger than the typical HS grad so age may have made a difference in choosing colleges.
More. I know physicians who have Harvard among their credentials who do the same work as locally educated people. I see that many from other schools go on to grad schools while many elite grads stop at a bachelor’s degree. I checked at the Harvard bookstore while on a Boston vacation several years ago and saw that the textbooks used were authored by mostly others- not the elite school profs. Look at the college backgrounds of the professors who teach at the elite schools as well. There is so much more to life than attending one small school for four years. I also wonder that the big private school push is taken by those on the east coast where there are so many of them and they began before the big state U push that resulted in elite flagships elsewhere.
Prestige. The rest of the country hasn’t heard about many of the schools those from a given area consider prestigious. If it weren’t for CC I certainly wouldn’t have. The top grade getters/most APs/top test scorers are not all gunning for the top ten list of schools. Plus- those schools can’t accommodate most of them. btw- elitism exists at many levels. For example, many grads from top flagships are not awed by Harvard and the likes- we know we are just as smart and got top educations in our Honors programs.
A lot of schools, private and public, market a list of famous graduates as if claiming credit for their success. IMHO, those people would have attained their status no matter what school they attended. The institution has no exclusive powers to inculcate or cultivate the industriousness, ingenuity or audacity that distinguishes successful people.
Elsewhere on this board, posters have bemoaned the “crazy” obsession with prestige and the lengths with which both the child and the parent will stretch to get there. I don’t blame the parents or the kids for dreaming big and scheming big. Their only mistake is reacting to market forces created by the elite school industry. Why do the schools get off so easy? Aren’t they, at least in part, responsible? They market to students they know will never get in only to increase applicants and lower admit rates, which enhances the illusion of their elitism. They manipulate and promote their USNWR rankings. The kids and parents are the unwitting addicts. The colleges are the dealers/pushers. They know it’s fake. The private schools deserve the crazies they ask for.
I've come to accept that prestige may be out of reach financially for my family.
[/QUOTE]
Er, that is not correct. Almost all the “prestigious” schools are very affordable based on your family income.
The hard part is to get accepted by these colleges.
I appreciate the four takeaways for your student who will settle for a state flagship university. That is not settling! Attending a state university that is not the flagship is not settling! Attending a private school in your state is not settling!
As others have pointed out, college is what you make of it. Where and when did someone decide/demand that all the really good students went to the elite schools? There are simply too few elite schools to accommodate the educational needs and desires of our wealth of excellent students, some of whom (gasp/horrors) aren’t valedictorians or don’t have As in a double-digit total of AP classes or aren’t in the 99%ile on the SAT or ACT or some combination of those and other factors. We would live in a very sorry world if we lacked access to the skills and knowledge of graduates from less prestigious state and private schools. Secretly, how many of us have made good use of educations received from some of the supposedly lesser colleges and universities?
Agreed. With admit rates is in the single digits, there is no argument to be made to the contrary. It’s true, maybe even likely, that my child may never see an acceptance letter. I’ve accepted that reality as well.
It still doesn’t change the fact that on the basis of value, we’re not missing out on anything that isn’t available at a lower cost — and higher admit rate.
I can’t help but salivate over the Yale book we received in the mail. Seriously - I would work for free at Yale, just to have the opportunity to audit classes. That’s my dream retirement.
@pragmaticmom - ask your kid where they want to live when they are “grown up”. If your state flagship has national recognition or if it doesn’t, might ultimately matter in getting that first job in the the location of choice (city or not city, north or south, east or west, water or mountains).
We’re in Ohio. Coming from California, I don’t think OSU’s reputation is top-tier, but it’s not going to hurt my child’s chances of getting a good job out of college. I’ve hired/fired for more than 25 years in my own career. Never has a the college name on a resume eliminated someone from consideration. Likewise, never has the college name on a resume created a “shoo-in.” I have to admit, I’m more skeptical of the ones who come in with a big college name – skeptical about their attitude toward tasks they may consider “menial” or “clerical.” I’ve seen a few misguided young people presume someone else is going to do their clerical work while they make the decisions…
" I’ve come to accept that prestige may be out of reach financially for my family.
…
What were the most valuable take-aways from your college experience?
I’ll start with my top four takeaways that I bet my kid can get even if she has to “settle” for the state flagship.
Exposure to leading thinkers and their ideas, an appreciation/love/thirst for knowledge for its own sake
Relationships with peers whose strengths/talents inspired me and whose diverse life experiences made me more worldly in the best sense of the word
A maturing worldview that improved my judgement …
Audacity to buck cultural/parental expectations in my career choice, take risks
I agree prestige will grant you access. ’
Well, if you are asking about our take on college, frankly, it was total and complete opposite of yours.
Our D. ruled out prestigious UGs, Ivy / Elites despite of the push from her GC. We could afford it, but we personally do not see any reason for attending Ivy at all. We were happy with her very mature and wise comment " I will do fine anywhere", while she did not even realize how rewarding this position will be for her at the end.
We personally do not like any values pushed on students at HS and college. I told D. to stay away from any political and worldview discussions for her own sake, we did not want any brainwash. Our stand is that the mature worldview could be developed only thru personal experiences and family values are much more important than that of the peers or profs. D. personally was looking for the student body of kids with wide range of interests and personalities. She did not care to be with just academically focus crowd, she did not need to draw any inspiration from anybody, she is way too much self-driven, she was looking for being able to relax with her friends. D. spent enormous amount of time researching and visiting to make sure that the place fit her as much as possible.
So, D's goals were to be able to get to at least one Med. School after graduating from college and mature personally, further develop her interpersonal, communication and leadership skills. All goals were achieved and college experiences went well beyond our expectations, while the wise decision choosing college had a great cherry on top.
D. ended up attending in-state public on full tuition Merit award in very selective program that accepted only 10 applicants. She had great choices of Med. Schools including top 20s and had hard time deciding. At the end choose the medical school of her dream way back in HS (did not even realize that) and after graduating matched to her first choice residency in specialty that she was also dreaming back in HS. While at Med. School, she realized that her pursuit of personal growth while at college resulted in being more mature socially than many others around her with numerous compliments about her bed manners from both her supervisors and patients.
And how about that cherry on top that I have mentioned before? Since she choose so wisely to attend college for free, we paid for her Med. School. She was among those 25% who graduated loan free.
Our kids attended/attend/will attend schools we can afford (Our kids cross a large age span. The oldest graduated from college 4 yrs ago and youngest just started K.) That pretty much sums up their destinations. Some of them are typical great students; a couple are “elite” students–their abilities and interests are beyond the norm. It matters not. Acceptance to an “elite” school with a price tag which requires $10,000-$15,000 more per year than we are willing to contribute is equivalent to a rejection. Simple reality.
Philosophically, we are completely content with that. Our kids shine at their schools. They are noticed by profs, invited to join projects, excel where they are planted. FWIW, our experience is not that job offers are local to the unknown university. Our ds attended an unknown regional tech university and had job offers from global companies in 3 different states.
I will say that we are having to exert a lot more effort trying to find a match for our dd who is interested in foreign languages and IS. Most of the departments do not match her language needs b/c she will be entering at a high level accomplishment. There is a mismatch between the schools’ graduation objectives and her personal abilities/goals. We are dedicating a lot of time trying to find both. Unfortunately, she might have to forego advancement in one of her languages and make the best of the other. Unless major scholarships can be found, forging her own path to excellence is the only alternative. (Which she is already doing. She is taking advantage of a recent influx of native speakers and working with them on her verbal skills. A university degree is not the only form of verification. She may end up having to pursue language certification which demonstrates ability beyond the university’s own offerings.)
In my next life I’m going to Yale.