Liberal Arts Colleges - Wellesley, Swarthmore, Haverford, Davidson, Smith

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi all! I'm currently finishing up my college researching process, and while I've covered most of my "high reach" choices, I'm really struggling with finishing up my LAC research.</p>

<p>Some information: I have a 2210 superscored SAT I score, have a 740 for Literature SAT II, planning to take a few more SAT IIs soon. I take the International Baccalaureate, and am hoping for a 38 - 39 / 42 predicted score by the time it comes to apply. I take heavily humanities subjects, and am mostly looking at majors like International Relations, Conflict Resolution etc., although I'm not yet decided. I'm also an international student.</p>

<p>I have quite a diverse range of ECAs - I've spent around 5 years debating both nationally and internationally (as part of a national team, and have won internationally reputable prizes), I'm president of my school's Student Council, I helped to found our school's LGBT support group / GSA, I participate in a lot of extra curricular charity events etc. I tend to consider myself as a rather introspective person who is passionate about service, building communities and intellectual cultures.</p>

<p>Right now, I'm seriously considering applying ED to Wellesley, which seems perfect for me in almost every way (I have a long list of reasons as to why I love Wellesley already!). I'm not a big party person so Wellesley's campus culture suits me well, I love Wellesley's intellectual culture and the fact that the community seems very tight-knit / the alumni network is so excellent. (MIT cross registration doesn't hurt as well!) It's also slightly more prestigious (internationally) which pleases the parents. However, I'm a little worried that I haven't covered all my bases in that I still don't have a clear picture of what other LACs are like and so am worried that I might be missing options out there that could potentially be a better match for me than Wellesley.</p>

<p>So without further ado, here are my first impressions of the schools I've listed above... Would anyone be able to add to my impressions of these schools / perhaps suggest whether or not they'd be a good fit for me? :)</p>

<p>Swarthmore: "Quirky" intellectual culture, full of very bright students. I heard in another CC thread that Swarthmore has some wifi problems, as well as problems with printers, food availability etc. but I'm not sure whether those problems still exist.</p>

<p>Haverford: Seems very friendly and serious about their honor code, seem non-judgmental and have a close relationship with Bryn Mawr (possibly good for cross-registration should I choose to take advantage of that.)</p>

<p>Davidson: Again seems to have a seriously intellectual bent, education on par with Ivy's, people seem to have ridiculous workloads.</p>

<p>Smith: Seems like a really friendly school, people seem a little more laid back than in other schools.</p>

<p>Ultimately I guess I just need a way to distinguish between all these different schools, help!</p>

2

<p>I would add Mount Holyoke to your list, especially since your interests are International Relations, conflict resolution, etc. They have a great reputation for that sort of thing. They also have a high international population. </p>

3

<p>what an accomplished, thoughtful student you are. I’ve only read this much (well-written post, btw) and I already want to know more about you. This is a very good list of LACs, but allow me please to suggest some schools that may not be LACs but are perhaps more accomplished in IR. (By the way, are you aware of the Caux Scholars program? I highly recommend it to students thinking of Conflict Resolution. Please have a look.)</p>

<p>Since you’ve done your research, I suppose you know about these schools but have decided to go with LACs. Nonetheless, allow me to suggest them as a way to give you a broader range of educational experiences: Georgetown, Hopkins, Tufts (quirky!), MIT (quirky2) for reaches. Syracuse, UDenver, American, George Washington, and Brandeis for matches to low matches. Georgetown will want 3 SATIIs, quite unusual, but it saves them from reading that many more applications. Some of these schools are absolutely abuzz right now with what’s going on in Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Korean Peninsula, West Africa, etc. They have internationally-renowned specialists in each region of conflict, and three of them are in DC.</p>

<p>Then we come to the problem of money, OP. Are you full pay? do your parents know what that means?:stuck_out_tongue: Have you chosen schools that often give intl students FA? have you run the net price calculators at your school? </p>

4

<p>@jkeil911 You are much, much too kind! Thank you for painting such a flattering portrait of me but I assure you I am but a lowly student like the rest of CC’s insanely accomplished seniors! :slight_smile: I was not previously aware of the Caux Scholars program - I have just googled it and the introductory page sounds AMAZING! Thank you so much for suggesting that and it will certainly be on my bucket list for future holidays! I’m actually extremely interested in the role that charities have to play in solving global problems (given that a lot of my extra curricular work is structured around different charitable organizations and I’ve seen a LOT of charities both succeed wildly and fail miserably in the past), but I’m also very curious about other forms of conflict resolution - of course I LOVE the idea of South Africa’s TRCs - I was able to travel to Durban a few years back and South Africa as a nation is so incredibly fascinating :smiley: The 2014 instructor sounds very fascinating and I’m very sorry that I missed that course.</p>

<p>I chose to go with mainly LACs I guess because I value a more holistic education, and I love most / all of the humanities :slight_smile: Hmm I haven’t considered schools other than LACs for a while though so perhaps I shall give it a go! I’m ashamed to say I don’t know much about any of those universities other than Georgetown and MIT :stuck_out_tongue: I guess I shall have to talk with my parents because they’re very conservative when it comes to ideas of “prestigious” universities (Wellesley is only safe because they know of Hilary Clinton) and so realistically we might not be able to come to a compromise on some of those schools. Also, my school limits us to a maximum of 8 applications, so I’ll have to cull my list down quickly. I like the idea of being in DC theoretically - in reality I’m more of a suburb kind of girl, but the allure of DC’s environment… I’m not sure whether I’ll be able to resist! It’s problematic that I won’t be able to visit any of these schools in person, but I guess I’ll have to deal with it regardless.</p>

<p>I will probably be applying full pay (I won’t turn down a need-blind scholarship though!) and yes my parents have the means to pay (good savers) and know what that entails (they’re both in academia) provided the school is of a high enough caliber, and can generate useful returns.</p>

<p>I was wondering though… I’m not sure whether my stats would be good enough for MIT. I mean realistically speaking, I’m a humanities major who isn’t amazing at STEM related subjects (My SAT reasoning breakdown is R 800, M 710, W 700), and if I want to take MIT courses I could probably cross-register for interesting classes through Wellesley (which I have a much better chance of getting into!). Thank you for taking time to give such thorough and helpful advice! You’ve given me a lot to think about :)</p>

5

<p>@staceyneil I definitely should start considering Mount Holyoke - to be honest, it’s only missing from my list because it’s not as highly ranked as some other schools, and my parents truly care about rankings… I guess it’s their money so what can you do. Perhaps I might be able to convince them though if I search up enough good things!</p>

6

<p>You have much better chance at Wellesley if you apply ED. Can’t go wrong with Wellesley. I would forget about taking another SAT subject test. Too much stress, spend the energy on essays.</p>

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<p>I was wondering actually, whether location might make a difference here? I dearly love Wellesley’s campus but as others have pointed out previously, it’s a rather isolated suburb. I’m not very familiar with the specific culture of Boston: Would it be friendly to international relations majors? If there is a significant difference, I might consider Georgetown more seriously in opposition to Wellesley (but then again, a city that houses MIT, Harvard and Wellesley combined MUST see some interesting guests right?)</p>

<p>@DrGoogle I’m worried that if I don’t get accepted to Wellesley ED, the fact I haven’t taken other SAT II tests might hold me back in regards to other applications… I’m not sure if I should take the chance :/</p>

8

<p>You know you need two SATIIs for Wellesley, right? I know you said you’re planning to take a few more soon… At least last year, Wellesley required two.</p>

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<p>@staceyneil Yes I’ll definitely take one more (probably Maths II), it’s just that I’m a humanities student and humanities subjects don’t tend to convert well into SAT subject tests! I might consider taking two more subject tests if it is truly necessary but that’s a lot of stress on top of my normal school life…</p>

10

<p>No I totally understand… just wanted to be sure you knew you needed two. My D was also totally humanities-oriented and she took literature and World History (which she self-studied for and did quite well.)</p>

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<p>@staceyneil Thank you for making sure! I appreciate that someone is looking out for us vulnerable applicants :slight_smile: I was considering studying for World History - I’ve attempted to start the AP course out of curiosity around five million times and in the process have picked up a few general facts about World History that might help me get started.</p>

<p>On another vaguely related note… this thread has made me reconsider whether or not to even bother applying to any HYPSM / Ivy schools (although I guess someone suggested MIT above!) Honestly, Stanford and Brown have been on my list for ages due to the fact I think my parents would cry if I didn’t apply to an Ivy (shocker I know) but they seem satisfied with Wellesley, and should be reasonably happy with maybe Georgetown or Swarthmore, if I apply. I think I will have to seriously reshuffle the priorities on my list, and fast!</p>

12

<p>World History maybe harder than you think, a lot of facts. My daughter took Literature subject test out of the cold, I think she got nearly 800, possibly 780, IIRC. What about Bio, do you do better in Bio, that’s what my humanities kid took for her second SAT subject test. When my daughter applied to Wellesley it was like 36% ED acceptance rate but things must have changed since. But I still think you have better chance there than at MIT. You can also study a semester at Harvard, I think that should please your parents. Eveyrbody’s heard of Harvard right? :smiley:
Wellesley is in Greater Boston so it’s not that isolate. I used to live in Brookline and that’s 9 miles from Wellesley. It also is situated somewhere near to Babson college. But that area is congested if anything, definitely not isolated.
The bus and train system in Boston is great, you can go to places easily. Have you heard of Tufts? I think it also has good IR program.</p>

13

<p>I’m surprised you included Davidson on your list. I visited it with my son, and we did not think it fit the same sort of brainy-nerdy-idiosyncratic college that you are looking at. They were the only college I’ve ever visited that had a team-sport requirement. It was very Southern-preppy, and seemed quite conservative. The town is tiny, although quite close to Charlotte. What about Goucher, Oberlin, Grinnell, Kenyon, Bryn Mawr, Barnard, Bard, Reed, Pitzer, Scripps, and Occidental?</p>

14

<p>@13lia1, First, have you visited any of the schools on your list (or for that matter any schools in the US)? LACs have distinctive personalities which are difficult to discern from afar. That said, Wellesley sounds like a good fit for you. Boston is easily accessible form its location.</p>

<p>Your thumbnail descriptions are good, but I would say that you’ve underestimated the level of intensity at Swarthmore and overestimated it at Davidson. The type of student who attends these two colleges is quite different: Swarthmore is extremely politically active. Davidson is more middle road and sporty. Schools more like Swarthmore would be Wesleyan, Haverford and Smith. Schools more like Davidson would be Wellesley, Williams and Amherst.</p>

<p>Second, Applying to Wellesley ED would preclude applying to any of your super selectives ED or SCEA… If you’re applying to Wellesely ED because it truly is your top choice, then good. If you’re applying to Wellesely ED because you think your chances would be better than at one of your high reaches, then you need to think through your strategy carefully.</p>

<p>Third, you mention that you also have high reaches and that you’re limited to 8 applications. Do you also have a safety school – in your home country or elsewhere? If yes, is it included in your 8? If not, you need a true safety! My son’s school (which was international, though he is a US citizen) also limited applications to 8. For students who are applying to super selective colleges this is unreasonably limiting, especially if they are non-US citizens looking at US colleges, and even more so if financial aid is part of the picture. You may not need aid, but if you are – I believe – considering both LACs and larger universities, your list may need to be wider.</p>

<p>My advice would be to talk to your counselor about bending the 8 rule, especially if you have other high reaches on your list. You should also finalize your list after you receive your ED results. If you’re successful, then you’re done! If not, you can recalibrate your list to include more matches.</p>

<p>Fourth, most of the schools on your list do not offer much merit aid. Smith – and Holyoke – are exceptions in the region. You may well receive money there. I believe Davidson does as well. Wellesley, Swarthmore, Haverford and many of the other northeast LACs offer only need based aid. If your parents are prepared to pay full tuition, then this shouldn’t matter. </p>

<p>Also, whether a school is need blind for internationals, is less pertinent for full-pay students. In fact, if you’re not applying for financial aid, then you actually have an advantage at non-need blind schools.</p>

<p>Fifth, you will find IR opportunities at most academically rigorous colleges. As a non-US citizen, having access to Washington may not be as advantageous as you might imagine. The key is to secure meaningful summer internships at NGOs in your area of interest and to seek out relationships with mentors who are professors or alumni/ae. This can be accomplished at any of the top colleges. I would give special mention to Macalester which is urban, friendly to internationals and excellent for IR.</p>

<p>Lastly, you should think further about the importance of location. Asians tend to gravitate toward urban and suburban schools and the international pool of applicants can be exceedingly competitive. Conversely, schools that are not located in urban areas and/or are located in the South or Midwest have difficulty recruiting and matriculating high achieving non-Whites, and they use international admits to bolster their diversity percentages. I would put Davidson in this category. Others that I would suggest – excellent academics, but non-urban settings – would be Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Grinnell, Carleton.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your comments! (I shall try to respond to all)</p>

<p>@momrath Responding in turn, (1) I have not visited any of these LACs, and it would be extraordinarily difficult for me to do so in any form before ED season starts (doing so would require me to take quite a lot of time off school, and my grades do need a boost up). It’s problematic because I don’t know people at every school either (although I do have several friends currently at Wellesley) and so I shall probably have to rely on a lot of good judgement. I think Georgetown has an information session near where I live soon though, so I should be able to get there. Thank you for correcting my assumptions about Davidson - I’m not sure where I picked up the rest of my hearsay. Honestly, the “middle of the road” approach is one of the things I like about Wellesley - but I feel it also has such a strong intellectual bent that while everyone is diversified, I will still be within an intellectual bubble I like (whereas I feel rather uncomfortable in an environment where all talk is only intellectual, 24/7, without a break for other things - my primary objection to Swarthmore currently.) Correct me if I’m making any dangerous assumptions here - again unfortunately I don’t get to visit before I apply!</p>

<p>(2) I’ve thought about this and don’t think I’ve necessarily been scared away from my “high reach” schools - I honestly feel like I could see myself clearly in Wellesley and that it seems a good match for me. That being said, it’s also the school I have researched / stalked the most. I will probably have to do a little more research before I finalize my decision.</p>

<p>(3) I know I mentioned high reaches - they are still pending. At the moment, having researched Brown and Wellesley equally, if I could choose only one school to go to Brown would be off my list in an instant. (I was looking at smaller, more liberal arts-y Ivies - Brown seemed to fit the general bill but otherwise I feel it doesn’t really suit my personality.) I do have a true safety - I’ll be applying to the University of Sydney (not my home country but I am an Australian citizen) probably for a Law and International Relations major. I am confident my grades are currently high enough to get into U of S, so I’m not too worried about having a backup plan. Unfortunately my counselor will NOT budge for anyone. In fact 8 schools is already his upper limit - we are told that we have 6 places only but can “generously” apply for 2 extra spaces should our parents be able to justify why.</p>

<p>(4) My parents are genuinely prepared to pay full tuition and since I have that option, I’m going to take advantage of the fact I have the means to pay (unfair, but that’s life).</p>

<p>(5) That’s a relief to hear! I have quite a few summer options I’ve been researching that would be good for IR, so I’m not too worried. I would love to get a chance to explore Boston (if I do go to Wellesley my plan is to get to Boston at least once a week to get to know the city intimately, possibly scout out work opportunities etc.) I shall add Macalester to the list! I’ve heard good things about that school :)</p>

<p>(6) I love that my ethnicity is so immediately clear haha (You’re right and I feel like a walking stereotype sometimes) - Thank you though for making me aware of that factor to consider. Due to personal preferences, I would strongly rather I go to an urban / suburban school (probably more suburban than urban) - I feel much more comfortable in a more urban setting and I would love the opportunity to explore US cities more in conjunction with my education. That being said, while Wellesley is not by any means an easy school to get into, I do think I have a reasonable chance of success. I’ve lurked on many CC threads before and I don’t believe my stats / ECAs are subpar to many of Wellesley’s ED applicants. Thus, if possible, I would like to avoid having to live in environments I don’t really like for 4 years! Thank you though for the advice!</p>

<p>@woogzmama I think I’ll probably take Davidson off my list (it doesn’t seem to be quite what I’m looking for). I wouldn’t actually count myself as an entirely quirky / idiosyncratic / nerdy person: I do want a relatively holistic school and so I might reconsider Swarthmore if I need to find space on my list! I shall have to take a closer look at the other schools you’ve mentioned - I have researched Grinnell, Reed, Bryn Mawr and not much else. Thanks!</p>

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<p>@DrGoogle I think the acceptance rate is at 28% now - so still higher than Ivies but getting lower! Definitely since I can access the Boston schools from Wellesley I don’t think I will apply to them (but I also don’t think Harvard or MIT particularly suit my temperament and needs for a school). I’ve been fairly bombarded with names but I will DEFINITELY take a look at Tufts! Thank you for the recommendation :)</p>

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<p>Re the 8 school limit: What we found out after the fact at our school was that counselors did budge considerably in some cases. My son applied and was admitted ED so it didn’t become an issue for us, but if he had been denied or deferred we would have protested the policy.</p>

<p>As I said, if you get into Wellesley ED, great. You’re done. If you are denied or deferred it may be an indication of the severely competitive nature of the international pool at selective LACs. This is especially true of applicants from developed places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Korea, India. After your ED choice and your safety, that only leaves 6, which is on the low side for an international applicant at selective US colleges.</p>

<p>[Your ethnicity isn’t immediately apparent in this post, but your CC postings leave a trail.]</p>

<p>You should make sure that your counselor will allow you to revisit your list after you receive your ED results. If ED doesn’t turn out the way you’d hoped, you can widen your list both in selectivity and geography. Don’t be afraid to stand up for yourself. This is your life not your counselor’s. Get your parents and the principal involved if necessary.</p>

<p>I don’t mean to be discouraging about Wellesley: the ED acceptance rate is over 50%. But still, you have to be cognizant of the competition among internationals from similar backgrounds to yours. Internationals are about 10% of the student body, and the spaces offered have to cover the whole world. Asians, whether US citiizens or internationals, are not URMs at Wellesley or most urban colleges. </p>

<p>For urban/suburban LACs, I’d look at Macalester, Wesleyan, Barnard, Bryn Mawr, Scripps. If Smith which is in a small town is acceptable to you, then add Holyoke and Amherst. I don’t think you should cut Davidson. I would say it has a lot of overlap with Wellesley, more so than Swarthmore or Reed for example. </p>

<p>I’ve nothing against the University of Sydney, but I think if you want a to attend college in the US and you want a medium to small college, then you could widen you safety options a bit. Smith and some of the other women’s colleges would be good options.</p>

18

<p>@momrath I live in Hong Kong. Thank you for being honest, and yes I’ll have to be very careful with my other choices if Wellesley ED doesn’t work out. I’m relatively close with our counsellor but he tends to be very stubborn - if needs be, I will definitely protest the policy.</p>

<p>I’m still not completely sure how much of a disadvantage I have as an international / Asian applicant: I shall perhaps ask my friends at Wellesley for some more information before I make a decision.</p>

<p>I am currently looking at Macalester and Bryn Mawr already - The rest I shall have to do more research on. Also, U of S is mainly on my list because as an Australian citizen it’s much cheaper for me to go to Sydney (and I also have family there so it’s rather convenient) - Again when it comes to these schools, my parents are insistent that I apply to “first tier” colleges only otherwise they don’t think it’s worth the extra cost. I will consider some of the other women’s colleges as well though - thank you for the list!</p>

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<p>I have lived in Hong Kong and in another Asian country so I understand the importance of name recognition to Asian families. When it comes to LACs this is even more problematic as even the “first tier” are not household names in Asia. If your parents can appreciate the value of a Wellesley education, they should, with some more information, feel stronger about any of the other top 20 LACs on USNWR list. All of these have excellent track records for admissions to top professional and graduate schools, but none – not even the top five – will offer much prestige in Asia.</p>

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<p>@momrath Thank you for your compassion and understanding - My parents both come from an academic background and have been educated in “Western” countries, so they aren’t as relentless about prestige as some other parents can be, but they do value “brand names” a considerable amount. However, I am relatively certain that they will accept most of the top 15-20 LACs on USNWR, and I will present them with a list in a few days. Thank you for giving up so much of your time to help me! I truly appreciate it.</p>