<p>
</p>
<p>Math and science courses in general have prerequisite sequences to follow. One does not normally jump into upper division electromagnetism (in physics) without first taking multivariable calculus, differential equations, and introductory electromagnetism (from lower division physics).</p>
<p>Even though the liberal arts include math and science, I think it’s fair to say that most students aren’t considering either when they say they are looking for engineering with liberal arts. They’re speaking of philosophy, art, history, music, etc. and within a framework that includes significant flexibility for exploration in those areas. It is this type of experience that is hard, dare I say impossible, to do in a four year engineering program. There’s too much engineering, math and physics to delve deeply into the other liberal arts. </p>
<p>What percentage of one’s four years of schedule space do you think is necessary to “delve deeply” into humanities and social studies?</p>
<p>If one finds an engineering degree program that requires the ABET minimum (25% math and science and 37.5% engineering courses), that leaves 37.5% for required H/SS breadth plus free electives. If the free electives are used for additional H/SS courses, then the student could take 37.5% in H/SS – enough for a typical H/SS major if the student wanted to do that.</p>
<p>So do you think 37.5% of the student’s four years of schedule space is insufficient to “delve deeply” into H/SS? Note that some schools require their engineering majors to take upper division H/SS courses as part of their breadth requirements.</p>
<p>@eyemgh, that is exactly what Mudd is hoping to give students a chance to do. The Mudd mission statement is:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Each student has to pick a secondary concentration in a non-STEM area and take several in-depth classes in that area, as well as complete some core distribution courses in the non-STEM humanities. And they have the whole Claremont Consortium to draw those concentration courses from. My D will probably do her concentration in visual arts. I know one of her friends plans on history as his secondary concentration. It can be done if the school makes it a priority.</p>
<p>I think Mudd is a very good option for students looking for that approach. It comes at a price though, general engineering only. Don’t take that the wrong way. They have a great reputation for producing thoughtful engineers. </p>
<p>DS was accepted to Mudd and almost attended/ To me it seemed like they had the academic rigor of other engineering programs PLUS extra humanities workload. </p>
<p>“Math and science courses in general have prerequisite sequences to follow.” - True But in Liberal Arts it’s not nearly as intertwined and interdependent as it is in Engineering. It’s quite different from schools like Amherst. Not sure this could be true, but on our tour years ago with DD they seemed to say that for some majors students take 8 courses in their major… and fill in the rest with courses of interest. </p>
<p>Sometimes non-engineering parents are shocked at the Engineering sequencing, which makes it difficult to take extra courses that knock the student off course. Most engineering colleges have some sort of course map to help visualize it better… The Purdue MechE map has nice formatting that is easy to read online. <a href=“Undergraduate Program at Purdue ME - Mechanical Engineering - Purdue University”>Undergraduate Program at Purdue ME - Mechanical Engineering - Purdue University;
<p>Liberal arts majors can have long prerequisite sequences. For example, the physics major at Berkeley has a seven semester long prerequisite sequence (six for students who start in a math course more advanced than first semester calculus), even though the major requires only fifteen courses (about 47-50% of the total courses needed to graduate).</p>
<p>Amherst’s physics major has a five course long prerequisite sequence, but Amherst does not offer the advanced lab courses that Berkeley does that make up the extra two courses in the sequence (nor does it offer second semesters of quantum mechanics or electromagnetism very frequently). I.e. the shorter prerequisite sequence at Amherst appears to be because the physics department there is too small to offer a full set of physics courses.</p>
<p>Again, I think it’s fair to say that students who are looking to major in engineering, but to also experience more liberal arts than what they’ve pre-conceptualized there be in a typical engineering program, aren’t thinking of either math or physics as falling into the realm of liberal arts, even though they certainly do. For sake of staying with the OP’s original intent, it’s best not to muddle the discussion with LA classes that typically fall within the technical portion of an engineering program.</p>
<p>Why the resistance to writing “humanities and social studies” if that is what you actually mean? “Liberal arts” properly includes math and science, as well as humanities and social studies.</p>
<p>In any case, what percentage of one’s four years of schedule space do you think is necessary to “delve deeply” into humanities and social studies?</p>
<p>Two comments:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>There are two schools of thought regarding one’s college education. One says it is to “broaden” one’s horizons, the other is that college is just a trade school. Many engineering students fall into the trade school train of thought. Sure it can be both, but engineering school requires such a huge chunk of basic skills to be learned that to be adequately prepared in en engineering field doesn’t leave much time (within a 4 year window) to do more than just the required “breadth” of LA courses that most engineering programs require. If you have the time, the money and the desire to do both then more power to you.</p></li>
<li><p>Why does one have to take courses in college to “broaden” one’s horizons? Can’t one do it by yourself or with your friends or thru some other means. Does one’s horizons stop being expanded once you leave college if it is only college courses that broaden them? Of course not!!!</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The game plan to me (and I am admittedly in the trade school mentality) would be to get the best engineering education possible (if one wanted to make that one’s career) as quickly as possible with an eye on the pocketbook. You’ll have some time to broaden your interests in college as well as the rest of our life to do so.</p>
<p>Perhaps worth noting is that if the student enters college with advanced placement from AP scores or college courses taken while in high school, s/he effectively gets extra free electives later, which can be used for any combination of additional technical and/or H/SS courses.</p>
<p>Yes, AP and IB credit can be helpful. </p>
<p>At CU (Colorado flagship), students with IB diplomas usually receive 30 credits (including Calc and science) and sophomore status. In theory that means they could get through in 3 years. However it seems that Engineering students often still need longer to accomplish the required sequencing. But certainly having the extra credits is a big benefit, allowing them to add internship time or extra courses in areas of interest. </p>
<p>Number of credits may be less important than subject credit for specific required courses. Being able to start in calculus 2 allows a free elective later instead of calculus 1, which can be used for a more valuable upper division course in either the major or some other subject.</p>
<p>For H/SS, having completed introductory economics, psychology, etc. with AP credit may allow the student to substitute upper division H/SS courses in place of introductory level H/SS courses, a potentially better use of schedule space if the student wants to maximize the H/SS breadth education s/he can get while there.</p>
<p>Yes, this is why I disagree with the common mantra that students should always repeat their AP credit in college. Instead, the student can try the college’s old final exams to check his/her knowledge relative to the college’s expectations; if s/he knows the material well, then repeating AP credit is just a waste of schedule space that could be better used for interesting free electives (in or out of major).</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus, I’m trying, and doing a poor job of it, to point out that there is a difference between perception and reality. There is a perception that a standard engineering program has minimal exposure to humanities and social studies and that if you want it different than that you have to go to Lafayette, Bucknell, or Union. Neither are true. There is some humanities and social studies in all engineering programs and the institutions above don’t offer any more than lots of programs that aren’t known as the liberal arts engineering schools.</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd, a school that prides itself in its focus on humanities and arts requires 25% of a student’s schooling be devoted to those subjects, the same a Cal Poly, a school no one would ever think of if they wanted a “LA focussed engineering degree.”</p>
<p>In contrast, almost half of the coursework at Thayer is unrelated to the engineering sequence and there is no curriculum map. It offers the ideal that I believe many envision when they say they want engineering and liberal arts.</p>
<p>I’m not defending Thayer or saying that students will get no liberal arts in traditional programs. In fact, the opposite is true. What I am saying is that common perception about engineering and liberal arts is wrong (in a muddled roundabout way).</p>
<p>Having started on the “I want a balance of LA and engineering” route, my son chose Cal Poly.</p>
<p>I think the Mudd percentage is closer to 1/3. Not a huge difference, but it is a difference.</p>
<p>Per the HM web site:</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Thirty cu are required in the Humanities, Social Sciences and the Arts to complete the requirement of 128 cu for graduation from the college.<<</p>
<p>That’s just over 23%</p>
<p>I was a bit over on Cal Poly. They are 20%, or 40 units out of 200.</p>
<p>That is the requirement. In most majors a student can take more.</p>
<p>But not without either cutting into their engineering hours or extending their time.</p>
<p>I’m not picking on Mudd. I’m just saying that most engineering programs, regardless of how they position themselves or how we perceive them are mostly engineering and it’s directly related liberal arts constituents, math and physics.</p>
<p>Interesting that this has developed a life of its own while the OP seems long gone. :)) </p>
<p>OP is gone. But it is a good discussion since so many rising senior families grapple with these kind of questions at this time of year. We certainly did at my house a few years ago.</p>
<p>Actually, Harvey Mudd requires the 30 credits in H/SS/A in addition to HSA 10 (3 credits). The 30 credits of H/SS/A is 10 additional courses, so that means a total of 11 H/SS/A courses.</p>
<p>It does look like Harvey Mudd courses pack substantially more material per credit than those at most other schools (including other highly selective schools). For example, the 9 credits of math and statistics required for all students covers topics that normally take about 20 credits at other schools. I.e. 128 credits of Harvey Mudd courses may contain significantly more material than a similar number of credits at another school (the same may apply to subsets of credits and courses, like math, science, and H/SS/A).</p>
<p>See page 17 of <a href=“https://www.hmc.edu/dean-of-faculty/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/11/hmc-advising-handbook-2011.pdf”>https://www.hmc.edu/dean-of-faculty/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/11/hmc-advising-handbook-2011.pdf</a> .</p>