<p>Dartmouth’s degree requirements include the following:</p>
<ul>
<li>Frosh writing + seminar or humanities sequence (2-3 courses, depending on writing placement).</li>
<li>8 distribution courses, including 5 in H/SS subjects.</li>
<li>35 courses total (typical schedule is 3 in each of 12 quarters).</li>
</ul>
<p>Counting the frosh writing + seminar or humanities sequence, that is 7-8 courses out of 35, or 20-23% of the total. However, if the student takes 36 total courses, that is 19-22%.</p>
<p>Dartmouth BE degrees in engineering requires 9 additional courses, for a total of 44-45. The 7-8 H/SS courses would then be only 16-18% of the total. It is not entirely clear why the extra courses beyond the normal 35-36 in a twelve quarter program of study are needed, since only 25 courses are needed for the BE major requirements, and there are no apparent additional distribution requirements (so only 33 courses at most would be needed to fulfill all of the BE major and distribution requirements, leaving 2-3 free electives). A student studying for a BE degree in fifteen quarters at Dartmouth would have 11 free electives, but that would not necessarily mean that s/he would take H/SS courses for them.</p>
<p>That is the point. By adding the fifth year, they’ve allowed for optional course work to be included into the curriculum. The student can do as they wish with the flexibility. No matter what any program wants to be or is perceived to be there’s only so much you can do in four years and still walk out with an ABET accredited degree. </p>
<p>Now I’m not advocating that it is the model anyone should aspire to. I am saying that when you look behind the curtains of the schools that have the reputations of having liberal arts engineering, the engineering experience isn’t that different from most of the rest. They are really fairly traditional engineering programs fully housed within liberal arts institutions.</p>
<p>The truth is, liberal arts engineering in practice, is mostly a myth. Both Bucknell and Lafayette admitted as much when we visited.</p>
<p>It is not like Dartmouth is unique in being a school where a student may take more than four academic years to graduate. Granted, private schools may be more willing to allow a student to stay extra semesters or quarters and pay tuition, since public schools want students to graduate as quickly as possible so that any individual in-state student does not consume more than his/her fair share of the in-state subsidy. But that still leaves a lot of private schools with engineering to choose from if one wants to stay extra semesters or quarters to take additional H/SS courses.</p>
<p>But then it may be cheaper to just take additional H/SS courses of interest at community colleges whenever (summers, after graduation, etc.), rather than staying extra semesters or quarters to take them. Of course, any upper division H/SS courses of interest would need to be taken while attending the four year school, so they should be prioritized when selecting them for one’s four year school schedule.</p>
<p>Not sure if this is typical for other schools, but in a total of 3 semesters of math classes at Mudd (split into quarters, 1.5 credit per course) my kid will cover Calculus, Probability & Statistics, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations, Multivariable Calculus, and Linear Alg/Differential Eq II. So this is covered in 9 credits. I don’t know if this is typical or not (I remember taking Calc at Michigan eons ago and it was a 3 credit semester class, though).</p>
<p>At most schools using the semester-hour credit counting system (120-128 credits to graduate), those math courses would have the following approximate credit values:</p>
<p>4 credits - calculus 1 (e.g. Michigan MATH 115)
4 credits - calculus 2 (e.g. Michigan MATH 116)
4 credits - multivariable calculus (e.g. Michigan MATH 215)
4-7 credits - linear algebra and differential equations (e.g. Michigan MATH 214 or MATH 217-316)
4 credits - introductory probability and statistics (e.g. Michigan STATS 250)</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd putting all that into 9 credits (and probably teaching it at what would be called honors level at most other schools) indicates that they expect a high level of math skill from incoming students.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is unique because it’s not that students CAN take five years, they HAVE to take five years. They, as far as I can tell, are the only institution that, by design, requires five years because they feel that’s how long it takes to both get an ABET accredited BS and a proper, according to them, exposure to H/SS.</p>
<p>The programs that claim or are perceived to be “liberal arts engineering” aren’t that different than any other engineering program.</p>
<p>Again, I’m not arguing for Dartmouth. In fact, $300k for a BS in engineering seems pretty absurd. I’m arguing that “liberal arts engineering” is largely a myth, due to the rigid nature of an engineering curriculum and the time constraints of four years. </p>
<p>eyemgh - While it seems impossible to combine liberal arts and engineering into one degree without sacrificing depth in either, do you think the QUALITY of the liberal arts classes would be better in a place like Lafayette as opposed to a tech school, or perhaps large state university?</p>
<p>Of course, by their nature, large state schools with good engineering programs have a similar level of diversity of majors in the liberal arts classes, so you can get the benefit of an academically diverse student body and a good engineering program.</p>
<p>Note - I was a more liberal artsy kind of student than most of the other classmates at Clarkson (which is mostly STEM, with a business school too). But no regrets on my engineering school choice, even now that I know A LOT more after doing college research for my kids.</p>
<p>When my son got to the end of his search, he decided that he wasn’t willing to compromise the quality of engineering as it was his number one priority. Then, he only applied to schools that have good reputations for undergraduate teaching. Lastly, he wanted to go to a school that offered a more stereotypical college experience. That ruled out innovative atypical schools like Olin and Mudd. He ended up choosing Cal Poly.</p>
<p>If you’re intent on the East, I’d look into WPI and Lehigh. They have much better engineering (if you define that by resources available to UGs) than Lafayette and still have great liberal arts.</p>
<p>BTW, one of the best college search tools you can buy is “DIY College Rankings” by Michelle Kretzschmar. She has taken all of the IPEDS data for all accredited colleges and universities and put it in a spreadsheet that you can search, rank and narrow by any IPEDS criteria. The data is free and you could attempt this yourself, but for $42 you can’t beat it.</p>
<p>Ranking schools by the number of engineering classes they offer can give you some insight. When you see Swarthmore offers less than 20 and Penn State more than 1000, it begs the question, what am I missing out on. </p>
<p>A classic search I did was schools smaller than 20k, but larger than 2k, with more than 50 classes in engineering, greater than 90% freshman retention rate, six year graduation rate greater than 60%, fewer than 10% part time students and no religious affiliation. </p>
<p>It’s a great tool that is very useful no matter what degree you seek.</p>
<p>However, the five year BE degree plan does not require additional H/SS courses. Indeed, someone doing that may end up taking only 7-8 H/SS courses, or 16-18% of the total of 44-45 courses.</p>
<p>It would be much better for a student interested in doing engineering with more H/SS courses to find a school where there is the option to stay additional semesters to take additional courses. That way, the student can make the decision later, possibly with consideration of whether s/he actually has the money for the extra semesters, rather than committing to the extra year of cost up front as with Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Note that University of Rochester has an optional tuition-free fifth year program that can be used for additional courses not related to the student’s major or pre-professional studies. However, living expenses are not free, and one must apply to it. A student who wants to take more H/SS (or other out-of-major) courses than s/he has schedule space for may find this lower cost option more attractive than the expensive fifth year up front commitment at Dartmouth. See <a href=“http://www.rochester.edu/college/CCAS/students/opportunities/takefive/”>Students : College Center for Advising Services : University of Rochester;
<p>You still have not said how many H/SS courses you think would give sufficient breadth and depth in H/SS subjects.</p>
<p>You’re firmly missing the point. I am not defending Dartmouth in any way shape or form. I’m saying that they are fairly unique in their approach to engineering and liberal arts by demanding a fifth year. All schools that purport to be or are perceived to be radically different than a “standard” engineering program really aren’t. 'Nuff said…the horse is dead!</p>