Liberty time reduced, study time going up at U.S. Naval Academy

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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Some of the other concepts that have floated through this thread are the “back in my day” the “some suffering is good”, the “harder the better”, and old standby “we should be thankful as they could have it much worse”. Yes it could be much worse; they could be sitting in a Hummer in Iraq waiting for the next IED to go off. But they’re not.

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<p>I believe the crux of these threads is simply that:</p>

<p>(1) lots of (perceived) bad things happen for no (apparent) reason -- especially in the military;</p>

<p>(2) number (1) isn't going to change no matter how much people wish it would;</p>

<p>(3) in the vast scheme of things, the changes at USNA aren't major; and </p>

<p>(4) it's not as if what is going on now is unprecedented.</p>

<p>It's easy to say today's mids "shouldn't" have to go through this. But we all endure this sort of thing, at some point in our military careers, civilian careers or just our lives. </p>

<p>I think that many of us who were mids and officers fully understand and empathize with the unhappiness, frustration, etc. of the current mids and their parents b/c we had those same feelings at some point in our USNA and/or USN/USMC careers. What we ultimately learned was that life isn't fair, especially in the military. Trite, but true. And we learned to deal with it and, at the end of the day, doing so made us stronger persons. The same will be true of today's mids.</p>

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I'm referring to mids' behavior.

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You know I actually did get that impression from your posts, but thank you for clarifying it.</p>

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To what are you referring, sir? I only know of some allegations involving staff - not facts.

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<p>So I take it from your comments if the activities in question involved the actions of Mids, allegations of some Mid misbehaving on Spring break for example; all of those were unqualified "factual events", where as the situation involving a doctor with hidden cameras, who may or may not be guilty or a staff member who moon lighted in DC is something less? </p>

<p>Given that neither one of us knows the truth I for one would not make such a generalization, except to say what is already obvious, the publicity around all those events were extremely unfortunate and a PR nightmare for the Academy</p>

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<p>"I'm referring to mids' behavior. To what are you referring, sir? I only know of some allegations involving staff - not facts. And some of the allegations were made by mids ostensibly trying to extort money from said adults. This speaks to mids' behavior, not the other way around."</p>

<p>wow wow and wow. as a mid i am fascinated at this twisting of blame and responsibility. you're right. mids allegedly misbehaving on a spring break cruise is SO much more egregious than a CAPT IN THE USN med corps, who (whoops!) never attended med school! or a CDR who likes to watch his sponsor kids take showers and have sex without their knowledge.
you're right. these are mere allegations...allegations that involve NCIS and court martials, but of course a letter sent to the academy from a disgruntled tourist claiming midshipmen inebriation and rudeness is just as legitimate. honestly, you disgust me.</p>

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the publicity around all those events were extremely unfortunate and a PR nightmare for the Academy

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<p>Yes, that's the point. I was addressing the cases involving mids because, as I understand it, they have been proved to be true. A jury concluded that no "crime" was committed, but poor conduct choices were made. That is a fact. Opportunity existed for mids to make those poor choices. Today's mids are bearing the consequences of the decisions which others have made - as well as - becoming more "mission oriented".</p>

<p>This was the questions you posed:

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Should we then condemn and apply a blanket assertion across all academy officers and staff and suggest they are unfit to teach or lead?

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<p>The incidents involving faculty are ALLEGATIONS. If proven to be true, I would expect some consequences for those actions as well. Do I expect the entire faculty to be addressed because of a few? Probably not. There could be some fall-out regarding whom is selected for employment or billets in the future, and the process thru which they are hired/selected, however. So, ultimately, yes, IF there are issues withiin the faculty, then, logically speaking, changes would result.</p>

<p>And let me say that I believe that there are differences in the expectations in MILITARY and CIVILIAN personnel at the academy. The mids are the FORMER.</p>

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<p>Hold on there, Wheelah - I'm still waiting on all the facts to come out on the CDR case. Didn't know about the Dr. who didn't attend Med School - - What!</p>

<p>Again, I would certainly expect HUGE consequences for the individuals involved in those cases! If proven to be true. That's all I'm saying - they haven't had a verdict yet, have they?</p>

<p>And hey, I'm not twisting blame on anything. Of course mids going a little wild on spring break doesn't even compare. Don't know how you read that implication into it.</p>

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<p>...and Wheelah, I notice you conveniently left out any reference to the Owens or Morrison cases. We're not just talking about "Spring Break" here.</p>

<p>Wow - I didn't even want to get into all this. I started my earlier post addressing parents who seemed to be a liitle bit in the dark about what a military career means in terms of "service". </p>

<p>Instead it turns into ad hominim "you disgust me" comments.</p>

<p>Wonderful.</p>

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<p>Just a note to gonavy2011 regarding the number of postings for usna2010: I am happy that people post their thoughts/information/experiences/worries!</p>

<p>This is my 2nd year with a kiddo at Annapolis. I appreciate everyones comments whether I agree or not. Keep those comments coming!</p>

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Yes, that's the point. I was addressing the cases involving mids because, as I understand it, they have been proved to be true.

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<p>You wouldn’t happen to be a reporter for the Baltimore Sun?</p>

<p>To quote Wheelah “wow” where to begin; how about “proved to be true”?? You obviously know little if anything about the cases you cite if you choose to characterize them as “proved to be true”. I really have to wonder what is driving your apparent zeal to trash the brigade and label them as unworthy of the responsibilities of leadership, while you make excuses for the actions of others. </p>

<p>So as I understand your logic as it applies to misdeeds; Mids = guilty as charged or to use your words, proved to be true and Faculty and Staff = allegations</p>

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[quote]
Do I expect the entire faculty to be addressed because of a few? Probably not.

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And yet you are suggesting we apply exactly that standard to the Brigade because of the actions of a few? So you want to hold young Mids to a higher standard than faculty and staff, many of whom are officers in their own right? </p>

<p>If you have had any experience with any justice system and the press and publicity that surrounds high profile cases like these in which the reputation of an institution such as the Naval Academy is concerned, truth such as it is, may have little to do with the damage that is done or the nature of the resolution or punishment that is ultimately applied. </p>

<p>Personally I don’t think negative publicity from the past few years has much to do with the underlying forces driving the changes under way at the Academy.</p>

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<p>zoom: Do you then attribute the current changes to pressure from alumni to change the previously lax standards, or to something else?</p>

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<p>Clarification: By "previously lax standards" I meant "country club atmosphere" versus academic or military standards.</p>

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<p>2012 I think there are people on this site that can speak to your question with much more firsthand knowledge than I have...since you asked I will say based on what I have read and heard I would not attribute much of what is going on to the Alumni.
And I still don't think that the USNA has been at any time much of a country club in terms of the demands it places on the Mids. They have to graduate with a degree that encompasses a more technical course load than most any Liberal Arts college while participating in the required Military and PE activities and do it all in 4 years. Everything they do can be judged relative to the difficulty or ease of another path, but I honestly don't think we should characterize what they experience as easy.</p>

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<p>oh trust me, i didn't "forget" to mention the sexual assault cases. its just that, just as i would not say that all officers at the naval academy are degenerate incompetents, (as the high profile cases would suggest) neither do i appreciate the assertions that because of owens and morrison that there is a huge problem with midshipmen behavior. that's like only reading the tabloids and thinking you are well-informed on current events.</p>

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“…a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor. He should know how to dance, play the violin, bagpipes and tuba, be an expert in home repair, be able to cook Thirty-Minute Brownies in twenty minutes and conduct the New York Philharmonic.. He should be the soul of tact, patience, justice, firmness, kindness, blah, blah, blah...etc. etc. etc...

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<p>how on earth did I miss this one! Must have been asleep at the helm!!!!
I need me one of these!!!!
Sign me up!!!
And if they do windows, I'll take two!!!! :)</p>

<p>(but you know- they do come home standing a bit taller- a bit more confident- certainly more insightful- more respectful- more willing to sit with the 'rents and have a real conversation- more appreciative of family- certainly more appreciative of home cooking- even the dance lessons got him up on the floor at the all-academy ball!...and with is mom too! :o How special did that make me feel!!!! :o :)</p>

<p>and he is but one of 4200 just like him!!!! (and the midshipwomen are just as outstanding!!!)</p>

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<p>Agree completely, Wheelah.</p>

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<p>Guess I missed the levity of some of the posts-
(sorry for the above commercial break!)</p>

<p>anyway...
I don't think "cultural" and "military" development need to be mutually exclusive.
I don't think it has to be "all work and no play."</p>

<p>I think these kids came to this point in their lives because of a lot of hard work, solid motivation, single-minded determination, and the gut-wrenching desire to make something of themselves doing worthwhile work.</p>

<p>And they do work.
They work hard, study hard, play hard.
I don't think a single one of them comes to the table with illusions of "party hearty at the USNA boat school country club on the severn."<br>
They came here with a mission....
they came here after being questioned and interviewed, examined and analyzed. And not by anyone, but by the best.... alumni, BGOs, MOCs, teachers, admission boards, DoDMERB, etc, etc, etc.
They dived through, crawled under, jumped over hurdle after hurdle.
They rose to the top of thousands of their peers.
And now they are here.
And they chose to be here as much as they were chosen.</p>

<p>Like many before them-
They have taken an oath to serve.
They have taken on that duty willingly and without reservation.
They are willing to put their lives on the line. They know it is coming.
And they are here.</p>

<p>And like many before them-
They endure.</p>

<p>Then they are told-
this is not a "college scholarship program."
As if they somehow overlooked the gravity of this path.
They KNOW this all too well.
"We are a country at war."
They know that too. 9/11 is part of THEIR history just as much as it will shape their very future.
And they come not during a time of peace, but during a time of war.</p>

<p>And like many before them-
They choose to stay.
And sign their 2 for 7's.
And select Marines ground. Marines air. The few and the proud.
And select Seals. The fewer.
They sail on the water, fly above it and dive beneath it.
Some will even venture into places we will never, ever see in our lifetime.</p>

<p>Military training, academic studies, appreciation for culture, repect for the arts, knowledge of the "how" with an appreciation for the "why".... it's all important.<br>
And like many before them- they have demonstrated they are more then capable of absorbing it all.</p>

<p>"He should be a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy and the nicest sense of personal honor..." NT and USNA69 remind us.</p>

<p>Were are further reminded that some have strayed and hit rock bottom.
I contend the majority have stayed the course.</p>

<p>But here are some other ones that have come to mind of late..... :o</p>

<p>"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones</p>

<p>"He who will not risk cannot win." - John Paul Jones.</p>

<p>"I will find a way, or make one." - Robert E. Peary.</p>

<p>"Take it, lad. You need it more than I do." - Chaplain George S. Rentz, U.S.S. Houston, 1942. (offering his life jacket to a seaman as the ship sank into the deep) (liking that one...sort of reminds me of the firsties right now sitting in Dalgren and Kings Hall......)</p>

<p>"Take her down." - Commander Howard Gilmore, U.S.S. Growler (hmmm.......holding all further comments as promised)</p>

<p>And from the book entitled "The United States Naval Academy," (Linda Foster et. al):</p>

<p>"Naval history is both colorful and enriching, and is also a record of the confrontation between dilemma and character. When well-trained individuals encounter difficult circumstances they grow; the United States Naval Academy is the crucible for the development of character."</p>

<p>I think we can all agree that they will come out the other end of this, no matter where it leads, a heck of a lot stronger. Just hoping there are enough life jackets if needed.</p>

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<p>"Rack hard. Rack fast. Rack often." - MIDN 3/C Bull Halsey</p>

<p>;)</p>

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<p>
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"You may fire when you are ready Gridley."

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Commodore George Dewey, 1 May 1898</p>

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"Sighted Sub, Sank Same."

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AMM 1/c Donald Francis Mason, 28 January 1942.</p>

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"For in this modern world, the instruments of warfare are not solely for waging war. Far more importantly, they are the means for controlling peace. Naval officers must therefore understand not only how to fight a war, but how to use the tremendous power which they operate to sustain a world of liberty and justice, without unleashing the powerful instruments of destruction and chaos that they have at their command."

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Admiral Arleigh Burke, CNO, 1 August 1961</p>

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"The Navy has both a tradition and a future--and we look with pride and confidence in both directions."

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Admiral George Anderson, CNO, 1 August 1961

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"I can imagine no more rewarding a career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: 'I served in the United States Navy.'"

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President John F. Kennedy, 1 August 1963, in Bancroft Hall at the U. S. Naval Academy.</p>

<p>(and my all time favorite...)</p>

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This is the transcript of an actual radio conversation between a US naval ship and Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October 1995. The Radio conversation was released by the Chief of Naval Operations on Oct. 10, 1995.</p>

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<p>US Ship: Please divert your course 0.5 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.</p>

<p>CND reply: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.</p>

<p>US Ship: This is the Captain of a US Navy Ship. I say again, divert your course.</p>

<p>CND reply: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course!</p>

<p>US Ship: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS CORAL SEA*, WE ARE A LARGE WARSHIP OF THE US NAVY. DIVERT YOUR COURSE NOW!!</p>

<p>CND reply: This is a lighthouse. Your call. </p>

<p>US Ship: (pregnant pause) ah- Right. </p>

<p>:eek:</p>

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<p>( urban legend)</p>

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<p>2010: While I got a great chuckle from your lighthouse quote (sure hope that was a legend), my favorite was the Arleigh Burke quote:</p>

<p>"Naval officers must therefore understand not only how to fight a war, but how to use the tremendous power which they operate to sustain a world of liberty and justice"</p>

<p>Sorry to stir things up again. Yes I know that there is zero chance that the supe or dant knows or cares what I think. Yes I know about chain of command. However, my opinion as a US citizen is that mando study hours for those who have demonstrated academic excellence unnecessarily belittles mids. I will rapidly change my stance if a current mid (jadler???) clarifies that upperclassmen in top standing are being encouraged to assist other mids with their studies, or to otherwise develop their leadership skills, physical readiness, etc.</p>

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<p>Adm. Burke's words seem particularly pertinent to this thread.</p>

<p>How quickly NativeTexan [I think, it is hard to go back and find exact quotes] was derided for suggesting that the mids should learn the art of avoiding war.
How quickly some were to deride her and any that came to her defense as being illogical or misunderstanding of the Navy's role.</p>

<p>NOW . . . where are those brave mariners when it comes to acknowledging that Adm. Burke said essentially the same thing when he said that using the fleet as a means for "controlling peace" was "far more important" than using it as a means of waging war.?</p>

<p>My father served briefly under Adm. Burke when he commanded the USS Huntington (CL-107)</p>

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<p>The derision continues. How, pray tell, does the fleet control peace? By being ready for war. Therefore, the more ready the fleet is for war, the more it controls the peace. Remember, policy is set by Washington. The military simply implements that policy. This statement was made at the height of the cold war build up and some very intelligent people were beginning to realize that, should there be war, there would be no winners.</p>