Lie, Cheat, Steal: High School ethics surveyed

<p>I don't know what scares me more: the story itself or the responses that some people are giving to the story.</p>

<p>Integrity just doesn't seem to be what it used to be. It used to be that your character was important.</p>

<p>But I can't say that I'm surprised at the direction of the statistics. I teach an AP Calculus class and regularly catch at least five students per year cheating. This year, I'm already up to six, and truthfully, it's just in being observant about the patterns between the intellectual level of class discussion vs. the achievement on the tests.</p>

<p>And the worst part of it all? Some of the parents have started defending their students in these efforts. I've known for a long time that parental support for the education system has been gradually eroding (in general). But when you catch a student with a "cheat sheet", and for a parent to say, "Do you really think (s)he meant to cheat?", there must be either extreme denial or too much "give my child whatever (s)he wants" syndrome.</p>

<p>I can't wait for the pendulum to start swinging back the other way on this issue.</p>

<p>our school everybody cheats on homework (and yes, it is considered cheating, just as severe as tests. isn't that sad?)</p>

<p>Btw, I really hope that your post, Yawn, was as joking as I perceived it to be.</p>

<p>i don't cheat, at least besides hw. but it's not because im self-righteous or anything, it's just that i don't want to get caught. and in every instance, being 5-10% higher on a single test doesn't help as much as a suspension and a zero on the test would hurt.</p>

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I bet if it there were no way to track plagiarism (purely theoretically), then even these holier than thou "I never break the honor code and if you do, your pathetic" tools would be plagiarizing once in a while as well.

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<p>Oh, I didn't realize you were such an expert on what I would and would not do, nick. Since you know me so well, I'll take you up on this bet.
I also liked your characterization of me as a "holier than thou ... tool."</p>

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Some people wont, but in ruleless high school, most will.

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<p>Interesting. I was under the impression that most high schools do actually have rules.</p>

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Moral high horse lectures dont meant a flying fck to your average HS student. Sure, some people adhere to strict codes, some people are moved by their high school ethics class. But if you really want to eliminate this problem, you have got be be smarter than the students. Teachers need to take the time to design HW, tests, papers, etc, that cannot be plagiarized, or if you got your answers from cramster or sparknotes, you wiill fail.

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<p>I actually agree with this. But I also think it's deplorable how students don't give a "flying f---" in the first place. Why not? Why don't they (we) care? When did this apathy toward moral codes and high personal standards start?</p>

<p>This would make a good study. Hmm..</p>

<p>Teachers also have cheated for students in the past. If a teacher could raise the classes standardized test scores then they got a bonus... I'm not saying this is rampant(it was at around 5% for two states(CA and Il))</p>

<p>I am bringing this up to prove that when the personal benefit greatly out weighs the social cost... You'll get alot of it. I'll be honest: Most people have a 99% success rate cheating, and it is worth it. </p>

<p>Really, if you cheat over 50 times a year you can increase your grade by 10% easily. Especially in AP classes. </p>

<p>As a system, the benefits are so high and percentages of those caught being so low really make cheating a worthwhile option. Increase the punishment, or put more emphasis on standardized tests that are tightly regulated(SAT).Tightly regulating everyday tests would be a pain... So one tightly regulated test to reflect the student is a better option.</p>

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Btw, I really hope that your post, Yawn, was as joking as I perceived it to be.

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I don't joke unless it's funny.</p>

<p>I casually cheat.</p>

<p>Similar to cigarettes, there are people who smoke excessively, and those who smoke casually and socially. I happen to be the latter with cheating. Of course, I would much rather spend my time reviewing Linear Programming, but when the time window becomes thin, I am not going to modest and say, "I did not dedicate enough time to thoroughly study this topic. I will, harshly and honestly, face the consequence of a B. " - Screw that. I'm pulling out the index card and shoving it in my calculator to reserve, and ensure, that A.</p>

<p>I won't deny it, however - The art of cheating is fun. I'm all for the adrenaline rush, even if I am risking my shot at NYU.</p>

<p>IMO, cheating can hardly be called "casual."</p>

<p>Don't you feel any guilt when you get that A and realize you don't deserve it, Monoclide?</p>

<p>I think we need to stop freaking out about grades. Obviously, there's no excuse for cheating (I'm not talking homework...the big stuff like papers), but kids do it to maintain a grade that pleases their parents. It's much healthier for everyone to just acknowledge someone's mental capacity in certain areas. My "too cool for school" (cool phrase, I know) cousin just got a good report card, and my grandpa would not stop bragging at Thanksgiving. Was it straight A's? No--it was an assortment of A's, B's, and perhaps a C that matched his actual aptitude and proved he did the work.</p>

<p>I agree with the Math Prof that not only are reports of cheating upsetting, but the reactions here are disturbing too. Not unexpected (I have teenagers) but disturbing. What I have found when talking with my teenagers' friends about this topic is that it isn't just that they feel okay about cheating. They do not understand why it is wrong! The end justifies the means, and the only moral wrong is getting caught.</p>

<p>In our high school, cheating is absolutely rampant and blatant. The wrong kid, the one who is not cheating in the whole group, is often the one who is accused. Seriously.</p>

<p>While it may sound like I am on a moral high horse, I totally don't blame the kids. Cheating is the result of a terrible education system, ridiculous parental pressures on grades, and pressure to get in to colleges. The root of some of this is money and prestige, and certainly not learning.</p>

<p>The kids are gaming an educational system that they do not believe in, and that fails to inspire them to anything higher. I recently read that even chimpanzees started cheating in various chimpanzee ways, once Jane Goodall set up a banana reward station. The whole educational system, from age 4 up, depends on external motivators like grades and stars and reading competitions rather than an inner motivator, like, say, pleasure in reading or learning. The books of Alfie Kohn and David Elkind are very interesting on this topic.</p>

<p>Parents in our town actually PAY their kids for A's, some as high as $500 (this is a working class town, too) and I have read that one urban school system is doing this too. Of course, this type of parental or administrative behavior will lead to cheating. The goal is all wrong.</p>

<p>Standardized testing is emphasized now- another external motivator for both students and teachers. Teachers get rewarded or penalized, for these results, and some have even cheated on this. The problem is that the testing, like the federal and state tests, have long ago given up the idea that education is a "fire to be lit," and, instead, go on the "bucket to be filled" model, and filling the bucket well means some sort of reward.</p>

<p>We also have a lot of tenured teachers who cheat themselves, in their jobs. They tell stories and do not teach. They give tests that they made up years ago and don't bother to fit it to material covered. We know teachers who lose kids' work and lie about it, making them do it over again. Etc. How can the kids have values in this environment?</p>

<p>I will tell one story that demonstrates that deep inside, kids still have their own morality. Cheating fits into that morality, when the kids feel that the whole educational game is immoral in the first place. One new teacher in our school decided that grades were in the way of learning. He told the whole class that they would just get an automatic A, and could they all please just concentrate on learning. Guess what? The students protested that this was not fair! They said it would be unfair for some people to work less and some to work more, and for everyone to get the same grade!</p>

<p>Needless to say, this teacher is gone. The school did not appreciate these innovations.</p>

<p>On the positive side, growing up, there is now a big emphasis on group work. Kids are encouraged to help each other out, and work together on solving problems, with the idea that this trains them for the workplace. The problem is, the adults never make it clear in the upper grades that individual work is supposed to be done alone. And, if working together still helps kids learn, then why should they not do it?</p>

<p>My kids met in study groups and helped other students study, or do problems, particularly since the teachers in our school are so incompetent. This was not cheating, but the cooperative spirit one poster mentioned in his classes, among kids who were cheating, can be part of a basically do it yourself kind of feeling kids have, when they have been abandoned by adults. </p>

<p>Finally, I think that the general, relative absence of adults in kids' lives over the last 25 years is also a factor. Kids are with peers very early on, and live within structured environments, often with behavioral tactics of reward and punishment. They are involved in a lot of activities, lessons and so on. </p>

<p>Hanging out with a parent from a very young age usec to be a good way to absorb values. The predominant peer culture that has resulted from social changes in childrearing has left a sort of adversarial relationship between adults and teens. The kids feel like they are winning in a contest with an enemy, not violating a mutual relationship of trust.</p>

<p>So,I totally don't blame kids for cheating, even if, for me as a child and teen, I never, ever cheated and would not have been able to forgive myself if I had (I am in my late 50's)</p>

<p>If there was more to believe in, other than grades and getting into Ivies, kids would not cheat. If learning in school was what it should be for them, and not just about grades and class rank, they would not cheat. All of this is the fault of adults, teachers and parents, and it is up to us adults to fix it sometime soon, too.</p>

<p>We had an English teacher who let us decide for ourselves if we would cheat. He would leave the room during the test and then go over the test before we handed it, turning a blind eye to answer-changing. He thought we had integrity, and would do the right thing and not cheat. I didn't cheat, and neither did my friends, but I didn't realize how much cheaters suck until that class. I would do all the work and read the book to prepare, but they would just rely on a really nice and passive smart person in our class to pull them along. They'd all get 100s and I'd get 90s, 80s. They all ruined the curve every single time, and they bragged about how much they don't work in that class. Goddd.</p>

<p>64% have cheated on tests and the other 36% have lied.</p>

<p>It would be interesting to be in an "automatic A" class as compmom mentioned. If schools didn't put such a huge emphasis on transcripts, then I would be curious to find out how such a class would impact learning. There would be no motivation to cheat, and there would be no need to do menial busy work. You might as well just learn if you have nothing better to do.</p>

<p>compmom, that was a long post, but I'm glad you posted it; I agreed with a lot of what you said. I still think this would be a really good study. </p>

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The whole educational system, from age 4 up, depends on external motivators like grades and stars and reading competitions rather than an inner motivator, like, say, pleasure in reading or learning.

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<p>!! This is exactly what I wrote my original argument paper on last year, except I didn't manage to execute it as concisely and clearly as you just did :( Excellent point though. I also found the book The Students are Watching: Schools and the Moral Contract, by Theodore and Nancy Faust Sizer, a very good read that kind of has to do with this topic.</p>

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IMO, cheating can hardly be called "casual."</p>

<p>Don't you feel any guilt when you get that A and realize you don't deserve it, Monoclide?

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<p>Not at all. Would I think twice about my grade at the end of the quarter? Definitely. Will I care? Eh, no. I really only cheat in classes that I don't care about, for that sole reason. In the main four, which I put heavy emphasis in, I don't cheat. When I see that 97 in English, or that 96 in Math - I know it's my grade and that I deserved it. When I see that 80 Italian grade, I don't care. I chuck it to the side.</p>

<p>compmom wrote a lot of things that I agree with as well. I think there are a lot of factors that contribute to many of the factors that compmom writes about that could potentially be studied.</p>

<p>The one that I would like to bring up that seems particularly relevant for the computer age and our increasing reliance on statistics and data. How much of the attitudes that we face are based on the expectation that only results matter?</p>

<p>If students can realistically be boiled down to a set of numbers (grade point average, SAT/ACT scores, # of AP tests taken and/or performance on said AP tests, class rank, indices measuring how challenging the school is, etc.), then aren't we missing the major point of education?</p>

<p>The reason why education doesn't focus on inner motivators anymore, IMO, is that inner motivators aren't in-and-of themselves measureable and quantifiable. We don't say, "It's valuable that Johnny likes to read"; we say, "How fast can Johnny read? At what grade level is Johnny reading? Can Johnny identify the major subtexts within the reading?" Because those particular skills are measureable, and skills that are measureable let us know if education is "working".</p>

<p>Except for so many students, education isn't about learning, it's about the art of hoop-jumping. It's evident in the focus of education: students ask, "What do I need to do to get an A?"; not "What do I need to learn?" Teachers provide rubrics that identify the key components of an ideal paper or project, rather than giving students the creativity and the flexibility to complete a project in a way that meets their needs while still meeting the technical requirements (i.e. the topic needs to be discussed).</p>

<p>Just a thought.</p>

<p>Let's face it. Without a push - Who would really try? Competition breeds excellence. </p>

<p>Think of us as free-thinking artists in Manhattan. Are we going to be competitive? Nope. We are just going to continue to make our "modern", abstract art. But, when are stressed and under the gun about how you are going to make the rent payment, or how you can afford to buy more overpriced scrap metal - You might think twice about competing with other artists for that gallery on Fifth and Forty-first.</p>

<p>There will be people who are truthful, and take pride in their honest work. And, then there will be people who take pride in that brand new BMW they are driving because they slept with a manager or two. Mindless, nihilistic souls - Oh, definitely. </p>

<p>We're human. We're going to cross over a few lines to get what we -really- want, regardless if they are illegal.</p>

<p>(I know. I sold my soul to the Devil, stole it back, jacked up the price and resold it to him. Twice.)</p>

<p>The problem is that the emphasis is totally on getting into school. I hear something said by my parents/teachers/friends about college admissions every single day. How often do I hear about integrity and morals? From a young age the emphasis has always been on grades, scores, and the almighty acceptance letter. So I remain honest as much as possible, but hard results are the top priority.</p>

<p>I usually don't cheat. But when I'm given the impression that teacher's don't care then, YES, I WILL cheat. If a certain teacher walks around the room the entire time during a test, then I won't cheat 'cause she obviously does not want us to. However, if a teacher leaves the class during testing, gives "Take-home tests" (you really cannot assign a test as a homework and call it a test...),etc then I will cheat 'cause the teacher obviously couldn't care less.</p>