Lie, Cheat, Steal: High School ethics surveyed

<p>"Ash i completely agree with you on morals. Everybody has their own set of morals and how they act in a certain situtation. Like viscious said, i am not in a position to judge anyone because i dont not know what they are going through. My PERSONAL views/morals are prolly way different than say, Ash's or Compmoms, and i act according to my morals. Nobodys morals are more right than others, because everybodys situation is different."</p>

<p>Your morals blow. I love it how people on this forum think that having a moral code of your own is okay in life. Here's a tip: it's not. Jobs, policemen, colleges, arent going to put up with your ********. Why do you think kindergarden exists (and 1st through 3rd grade)? I'd be interested to hear a good excuse for someone cheating. You guys are the reason cults exist.</p>

<p>Interestingly enough, my English class had an essay test yesterday where most of the class knew the prompt in advance (in earlier class told their friends). After the test, someone told the teacher.</p>

<p>Today the teacher found out from the earlier class who had known (supposedly), and during our class she went outside while we had to work out confessions inside for those who did it. If everyone guilty didn't confess, we would all lose 50 points. Eventually a few people confessed to having done research during lunch in the library, and they'll be punished.</p>

<p>The student's decision to tell the teacher will probably decrease cheating in the future, but the result is still frustrating. The people that end up getting punished are somewhat arbitrary (though several of the people caught have cheated rampantly in the past). Also, most of the fault lies with the earlier class, and it seems to me that almost everyone in that class told others. I don't think they were punished enough, especially since it is mainly their fault.</p>

<p>I never cheated and I did fine. I would, however, let people copy my homework. Mostly I felt a lot of the assignments were stupid. But I had friends that would forget an assignment and I'd see them rushing in the morning to get it done, so I'd just let them copy me.</p>

<p>

Hahaha, you have a problem with relative morality?! </p>

<p>Uhmmm, I have a problem with people who think that there's such thing as absolute morality, i.e. people who follow moral codes (religious or otherwise) and flatter themselves so as to think that THEIR way of living is the only correct one.</p>

<p>Get off of your high horse.</p>

<p>Yeah, there are things that are generally agreed on as "bad." No society promotes killing, for example, or dishonesty. But that's not because there is some absolute, tangible "RIGHT" and "WRONG" floating around in space. It's because people generally tend toward behavior that is beneficial to themselves and those around them, especially in such extreme cases as murder. (Of course, even killing is debatable -- the death penalty is an issue, as is the "kill one person to save 100 innocents?" scenario, and some people consider abortion "killing"... etc. NOTHING is clear-cut.) </p>

<p>But when you get to the smaller, less defined stuff, everyone differs in opinion. If you want to believe that YOUR exact morals are the only CORRECT ones, then okay. You go on living like that. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there IS a "Right" out there, and a "Wrong." Maybe I'm a terrible person because I don't subscribe to the CORRECT moral code. :shrugs: It's a risk I'm willing to take. </p>

<p>Oh, and one final thing: you've got a good point about "policemen" not putting up with people's views of "right" or "wrong." That's because we've got a legal system to DEFINE the "correct" course of action. It's the social contract theory, ya know? People formed government in order to protect themselves -- to benefit individually by becoming part of the whole. The law draws the lines, and I've no problem with that, even if it doesn't perfectly correlate with my own beliefs. </p>

<p>Do you agree with every single law? If so, that's great. I suppose our legal system is the "correct" moral code, then. Too bad for other countries with slightly (or drastically) different ones... :/ Oooh, and even people outside of your state... ahh, and outside of your county! The laws differ EVERYWHERE! Too bad these other counties have "[their] own moral code[s]," and that's just not "okay in life." </p>

<p>If the legal system isn't your basis, then is a religion? Too bad for people outside of your religion... and people who interpret religious teachings in a slightly different light...</p>

<p>Ugh, I give up. Enlighten me as to the Absolute Truth of Right and Wrong.</p>

<p>PS I love ya euphoria, just got a little heated up yaknowww</p>

<p>Ooo, and one more thing.</p>

<p>

School's purpose is to educate you, both by inculcating knowledge and by teaching real-world skills. Learning how to take advantage of one's resources is definitely a skill that will be beneficial in the working world. </p>

<p>And to those who say, "But cheaters will eventually get caught and be screwed over!!" -- I admire your strong belief in karma, but alas, it doesn't always work out that way. :\ And the "They won't learn the material and will flounder in college" defense is BS, and you must know it. If someone doesn't bother to memorize info at one time, that doesn't mean that he or she will never learn it, especially the second time around in college. I don't think anyone cheats enough so as to never learn ANYTHING in school, hahaha, and if they're THAT good, they'll be able to pull it off in university, too, soooo... yeah. Weak argument.</p>

<p>"Hahaha, you have a problem with relative morality?!"</p>

<p>To a certain extent... basically what you said with the murder. I have more of a problem with **boring people<a href="not%20you%20poseur,%20other%20people">/B</a>.</p>

<p>"School's purpose is to educate you, both by inculcating knowledge and by teaching real-world skills. Learning how to take advantage of one's resources is definitely a skill that will be beneficial in the working world. </p>

<p>(And to those who say, "But cheaters will eventually get caught and be screwed over!!" -- I admire your strong belief in karma, but it doesn't always work out that way.)"</p>

<p>Perhaps they won't, but it'll probably catch up to them. Cheating isn't a major pet peeve of mine (my pet peeve is the phrase "pet peeve"), but I like hearing what people have to say on different sides of the subject.</p>

<p>I actually hate when people cheat at my school. </p>

<p>But I fiercely defend it in principle.</p>

<p>Go figure...</p>

<p>Edit ~ Just read the last page, haha, and saw that everything I said in my post had been addressed. Wow, I suck. I hadn't been keeping up with this thread, lolz.</p>

<p>Can someone please explain to me what the benefits of not cheating are? Several posters have already made the point that the game is heavily stilted in favor of those who do. This is true practically no matter what you look at. The cheaters get both the clean conscience and the other benefits associated with winning whatever they were after (college admissions, money, etc.). The losers get just the clean conscience.</p>

<p>And the pride of knowing that we're capable of doing better without cheating than the cheaters. ^__^</p>

<p>I'll take the cash option.</p>

<p>In general though, I treat others as I expect them to treat me. Which means, not with a whole lot of honesty. If I interview for a company, there's no guarantee my position isn't about to be made redundant and I won't get laid off in 2 months; colleges are interested in boosting their rankings by hiding crime statistics and recruiting people with high SATs (only way to explain my scholarships), and so forth. I don't cheat in college because my gen eds are insanely easy and I probably need to actually know computer science to do anything with it, but I would have no qualms doing it if it were necessary.</p>

<p>Look, I don't think there's any possible way to cheat and have a clean conscience. I don't believe anyone is born like that or can become like that. Humans have moral compasses. You guys can say all you want about there being "no negatives" to cheating, but I know that it will catch up with you.</p>

<p>I have cheated and not felt the slighest bit guily about it. Wrong. If anything, it's a mind game to see how blatantly you can do it and still get away with it.</p>

<p>Incidentally, 90 or 95% of the time, it doesn't catch up to you. The world is not some fable; most of the people in positions of wealth or power got there by cheating.</p>

<p>And I do have a moral compass--I would go through some personal hardship to avoid turning in any of my friends who cheat, for example, and would feel guilty if I turned any of them in. But cheating? Just part of the competition.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Look, I don't think there's any possible way to cheat and have a clean conscience. I don't believe anyone is born like that or can become like that.

[/quote]

Lots of people feel this way, I know plenty that have no moral qualms over cheating.</p>

<p>As for myself, I don't cheat, but I'm going to honestly say I refrain from cheating not so much because of this moral-crusader I'm so alpha-godly bs, but because I don't think it's worth putting that time/effort into cheating and I'd be too lazy. My level of "caring", or "giveacrap" status for things like tests, hw, and schoolwork is so low and trivial that I wouldn't bother caring enough to do something as cheating as it's not worth it.</p>

<p>I once remember my dad telling me he cheated in some random GE in college by etching hints and helpful things on his pencil. My mom's reply: You could have used time to actually learn that stuff.</p>

<p>I don't know about you guys, but I thought that was really funny. My mom has a point though. Overly elaborate ways to cheat that take up too much time is just a waste. Might as well use that time studying instead.</p>

<p>My uncle, who's a college professor in another country, ironically used to cheat a LOT with my dad during high school and college. He says teachers need to just use open book tests but make it so that it's impossible to finish the test without studying and knowing the material. That works the best.</p>

<p>Pretty much what Poseur said. </p>

<p>No one likes abortion, but I'm going to accept that it will happen and not pass judgment on people who choose that. And as cartmenez says, abortion is the ultimate form of cheating - your cheating God. Thus why get riled up about minor cheating that may or may not be justifiable? </p>

<p>it is what it is. Learn to adapt - its survival of the fittest, not moralest. And 90% of the people who say, I would never cheat, say that because they've never had a situation threaten them - when you are actually threatened, self preservation will trump your morals. When you actually need the job to feed yourself, you'll lie on that resume if you know it will work.</p>

<p>So why do colleges still care about GPA's with these stats?</p>

<p>Ayn Rand (And I by no means endorse her) calls these people the second handers, the nonthinkers, the good GPA Peter Keatings who can not think. They get good jobs, get to do big projects, run companies, change the world. They just aren't always the best people who could do big projects, run companies, change the world. Ayn Rand argues that they aren't necessary for the world to function, that they're all just parasites on the people who can do things. The theory comes from Aristotle, if you'd rather read his philosophy.</p>

<p>Cheating depends on your morals. If you can do it. Go for it, have fun, but be aware of the consequences. If you don't cheat you will probably still find another school, and a different job in the same career. Have fun again.</p>

<p>In the end. When you die, whether you have a religion or not, it all evens out. Life isn't fair. Death is. It's true I wrote a paper on it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Monoclide, #99
I'm sorry - But, when I see an adult. I look them eye to eye. I don't look up them. I don't treat them any differently. I expect the same respect back. My point is just as valid, and worthy as theirs. No one is inferior. </p>

<p>I am not going to drink fat, disgusting milk because the guy on TV told me to do so. I am not going to help my country in a time a war - I could not care less. Hell, I won't even say the pledge to the flag. </p>

<p>Nothing is wrong with society. Absolutely nothing. I am an example of that. A independent, free-thinker. I fail to see how a homogeneous, quiet society would be better for everyone. Sure - There would probably be a lot less jealousy in the world, there would be less crime, no more this, no more that - But, what the hell. Without these events, we would have nothing to look back on and build ourselves as a society.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, young Padawan, you are not my "equal." What you are an example of is the hubris of sheltered youth. You have a very, very long way to go before you can pretend to counsel adults without sending me into peals of laughter.</p>

<p>You (most likely) have not given birth.
You have not fed yourself for a week on five dollars.
You have not agonized over whether to pay all the bills at once or let one slip till payday so you can buy gas to get to work.
You have not owned and maintained a home, where there is no landlord or maintenance man who will take care of things when the roof leaks or the water main bursts.
You have not put yourself through grad school while working full time, raising a small child alone, and maintaining professional commitments in your field.
You have not dragged your butt out of bed after a total of six hours' sleep in the past 48, because your child was awake and needed to be fed.
You have not planned a college course and taught it to students whose only concern -- at first -- was getting an A in the class.
You have not defended yourself against the schemes of an incompetent goof whose plan for personal success was to take credit for your work.
You have not hired, supervised, or fired people.
You have not talked a drunkard down from a potentially violent confrontation.
You have not helped a friend move in the span of three hours while her live-in boyfriend was away.
You have not spoken with a woman who is in the county jail because she couldn't stand being abused anymore, and killed her husband.</p>

<p>You see, there are many, many situations in life that you can't cheat your way through.</p>

<p>Your less than two decades' worth of experience is nothing compared with what I have lived through, nor what people I've known have lived through. Your experience is nothing compared with what any adult you meet has lived through. You have never been responsible for your own life and livelihood, nor for that of another who is wholly dependent on you.</p>

<p>Your points are not every bit as valid as mine, and here's why: Mine are tested and proven through unsheltered experience. Yours are untested outside the shelter of a home and a living that are provided for you by adults who care for you and run offense for you. Until you've tested and refined your ideas about Life, the Universe and Everything in the real world, when there is no safety net and the stakes include your life and more... those ideas of yours are purely theoretical. You don't know enough to know what you don't know.</p>

<p>That is no criticism of you; at your age, you're not expected to. Nor are you expected to have had your personal Copernican revolution yet. But don't expect any adult to read these words of yours and think that you, a self-centered pup who crumbles under the pressure of a high school Italian class, are worthy of the respect you demand as an "equal."</p>

<p>Relative morality may be a fine thing in terms of one's belief structure, but absolute morality has to be the code by which we all abide. Rousseau's "Social Contract" treatise does a fantastic job of illustrating this. By participating in society, you have implicitly agreed to live by its rules, and to suffer the consequences for failure to do so.</p>

<p>To illustrate this idea of absolute law, take the current debate regarding homosexual marriage that's gotten particular attention with California's Proposition 8. People are trying to use their relative morality (they believe homosexual marriage is acceptable) to challenge the absolute law (homosexual marriage is forbidden). Two of the positions that advocates of homosexual marriage have taken to support their position are "it's biological" and "you can't help who you love".</p>

<p>But to some extent, we do expect people to control who they love as part of our social contract for living in society. Among some of the things that are outlawed in most U.S. jurisdictions:</p>

<ul>
<li>Marrying dead people.</li>
<li>People over the age of 18 marrying people under a certain age (ages vary slightly by jurisdiction).</li>
<li>People marrying multiple people.</li>
<li>People marrying their pets.</li>
</ul>

<p>Not that long ago, people would have included marrying people of other races as at least being something that was socially taboo, if not completely forbidden. Some workplaces have rules outlawing relationships with coworkers (sometimes one has to have some kind of supervisory position over the other for it to be forbidden).</p>

<p>It's not to say that the line cannot change over time. That's why we have movements in our country. Some of those movements have promoted great change (think the civil rights movement) while other movements have clearly failed (think prohibition). The gay rights movement is an interesting movement to follow as a modern-day example of the line of absolute law and whether it should adjust in response to relative morality.</p>

<p>(That being said, I now expect some of the next page of posts bashing how I can clearly be so ignorant to argue a position that I don't even personally support :) .)</p>

<p>People can argue that the rules aren't correct. They can even advocate for change. But as a member of society, breaking the rules has consequences if you're caught.</p>

<p>So when people say, "Hey, I'll do what I want," you're accepting the consequences. Maybe there won't be any. But to argue relative morality as your reason for cheating won't fly. The rules are established, and violating the rules is frequently not the most effective way to advocate for their repeal.</p>

<p>Interestingly enough, what most cheating advocates are arguing for in this thread is a centuries old idea, which Bentham discussed as "utility calculus". (It made me chuckle that people were thinking this was a new idea.) The idea being that when people make decisions, they do a cost-benefit analysis (usually not explicitly) and decide if the potential risks outweigh the potential rewards. If they decide they don't, they'll often perform the action; if they decide they do, they'll steer clear.</p>

<p>When people ask why they shouldn't cheat, the answer -- I believe -- lies in utility calculus. The risks of getting caught are non-zero in cheating, whether it be directly on the assignment/assessment in question or whether it be somewhere down the road when cheating ultimately qualifies someone for something they turn out to be unqualified for. On the other hand, performing one's work honestly -- while ultimately not necessarily leading to the outcomes that one desires -- is at least likely to lead one to positions that they are qualified for.</p>

<p>Further, I believe that the ability to work hard when necessary turns out to be a useful skill. While some can turn on that ability like a switch, I believe that the definition of what it means to work hard changes throughout one's lifetime and gets constantly redefined by the challenges ahead. Those who have had to work hard to survive are likely to be able to redefine hard work. Those who have never had to do so face a great challenge the first time they run into that dilemma, and the easy way out may not always be available.</p>

<p>Take the issues with our economy. A lot of it stems to the banking crisis, stemming from corporations (who wanted to take the easy way out towards making higher profits) to the homeowners (who wanted to take the easy way out towards affording home ownership that wasn't really within the realm of affordability). It will be interesting to see, down the road, just how accountable everyone will end up being held in the long run.</p>

<p>Just a few thoughts. With apologies for the length of the post.</p>

<p>natural selection. The people who adapt to the school system and cheat survive, the people who stay on their moral high horse and don't cheat fail, or at least have to work much harder.</p>

<p>not saying that its right, just that that's how it works. And people who say that "karma" will set those cheaters right are delusional. Life isn't a fairy tale. People who cheat, or game the system, are the people who reach society's highest positions because they have the ruthless mentality.</p>

<p>Math Prof, </p>

<p>Your post was interesting. However, I really don't think there is an absolute morality that is observed by a majority, anymore. Unless you view this as provided by some sort of higher power, which many people no longer do, or believe in an existential path of doing the right thing in a vaccuum (my own position), then the only absolute lies in the written law, as you imply (which is also open to interpretation.) Hence, the only "wrong" is to be caught.</p>

<p>In conversations with teenagers about cheating, I have, as I said before, been amazed that they really, truly, do not understand why cheating might be wrong. They feel that, of course, the end justifies the means, and anything that benefits an individual (themselves) can't be wrong. Since this moral void leaves only rules and regulations to define "right," in a manner that carries consequences but NOT meaning, to anyone, then it makes sense that cheaters only see themselves as "wrong" if caught. </p>

<p>Eureka, I get it! For the first time, I guess I can really see this. But it conveys such emptiness, it is hard to grasp for those of us who grew up with more idealistic notions, however disillusioned over the years. Once again, I feel sympathy for this situation, even though it is disturbing. There are reasons for this to have happened, which have been discussed by everyone, and the pendulum will no doubt swing back at some point- at least, I hope.</p>

<p>I read a book by an anthropologist about a tribe in some part of Africa, called the "Ik", as I remember. This author had written a previous book on the pygmies, and portrayed them as a beautiful group, very moral, a cooperative society that helped the weak and raised children with care. Leaders were respected for their wisdom, and the society was orderly but free. Food was plentiful and the rain forest provided a secure and pleasant life, at that time. </p>

<p>The Ik, on the other hand, lived on lands that had been decimated by drought, and there was not enough food for everyone. So even eating was competitive. They stole food from the mouths of their children and from the elderly, left weaker members to die, and generally each person looked out for him or herself, in the most ruthless way. When the anthropologist went away for a few days, he tied down his tent to deter stealing, but they still managed to get in and take his things.They appeared to be completely amoral, and there was complete moral chaos in their lives.</p>

<p>What was the difference between these tribes, and how does it relate to this discussion? I could feel sympathy for the Ik, and so did the author, despite his obvious disgust, at times. There are all kinds of reasons for the breakdown of morality w/the Iks, because of hunger, deprivation, a breakdown of order and law, and sheer instinct for survival, which apparently even superceded taking care of their young. So, does our society feel empty like that, to anyone? Are we, in some way, more like the Ik than the pygmies (in a much milder form of course, and I am not suggesting that cheating is the same as starving our babies!)? </p>

<p>Does morality depend on having enough sustenance, physical and psychic, as a baseline? Our kids have enough food, but are there other things that have really gone wrong, that leave them deprived of something essential?</p>

<p>It is necessary to say, there are exceptions: even among the Ik, there were individuals, hungry themselves, who would sneak food to children or the elderly, at great risk to themselves.</p>

<p>Laws and rules can provide order and stability, but that is different from authentic morality, which may or may not match the rules. Totalitarian regimes, which are certainly orderly, define rightness by what benefits the regime (in the same way, perhaps, that cheaters are defining rightness by benefit to self). There is a parallel, in that, without the idealism of democracy, morality is defined, as you say, by "utility," just as, in the absence of idealism, on an individual level, morality is defined by "utility" and cost/benefit ratios. </p>

<p>Under a totalitarian regime, individuals are relieved of some moral responsibility. They are just doing what they have to do to survive. Is it possible that some of the posters who defend cheating, feel the same way? By talking about the tyranny of inept schools and teachers, and parents who pressure about grades, and all those other stresses kids are under, is there a similar feeling of not being free enough to be responsible?</p>

<p>Even under oppression, however, there are always individuals who maintain an inner sense of what is right, and who act, against their own self-preservation, for the good of others and the community. Their actions are not defined by utility, but by higher goals. These are resisters to Nazi Germany, people who stood in front of tanks in Beijing, civil rights workers, and so on. I think that some of the non-cheaters are made of the same stuff (on a less dramatic scale, of course, for the time being), meaning, they have some inner sense of what is right, regardless of what the culture is telling them, regardless of any cost or benefit lost to themselves. </p>

<p>The goals of getting ahead, making money, winning in competition, outsmarting authority figures, most of all, getting benefits for oneself instead of the community, have supplanted goals of doing the right thing no matter the cost, cooperation and consensus, humility, hard work, and selflessness. Does that sound like the Ik, or the pygmies? The Ik also did not seem to have any awareness of doing anything wrong: how can it be wrong to try to survive? (How can it be wrong not to do anything to get into Harvard?)</p>

<p>At the same time, there are people who are choosing to resist cheating. I think the difference might be that, somewhat like the few Ik who fed others, and the Nazi resisters, the non-cheaters have some very strong feelings of responsibility to others. I think that some people just have sort of a cosmic sense of how the actions of each person affect the whole, as if we are all holding up a building on our shoulders, and if too many people walk away, it will all fall down- just as it did with the Ik.</p>

<p>Human beings have not changed. Evolution moves too slowly for that. We're not all that different from primitive humans who need to ensure that the species survives. And believe me, I am one of those people, and I am totally sympathetic, as I have said, to the flaws we all share. </p>

<p>But, once again, it is just so heartening to read the posts of those young people who are not cheating. In closing, I guess I can anticipate that some people will write to say that cheating is also a form or resistance to oppression. I can see that too. But in the long run, the real resistance lies in not cheating, and I do believe that many benefits will accrue, eventually, that cannot perhaps be measured or described, to those who do not cheat.</p>