Lie, Cheat, Steal: High School ethics surveyed

Pre-College Issues High School Life
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<p>A very interesting post in reply.</p>

<p>One thought that occurs to me in reading your post is that this could be related to the ability to view long-term consequences. Maslow originally had what he called a "hierarchy of needs", and while the hierarchy portion of his theory has been somewhat debunked -- many people seek higher level needs even while confronting their most basic needs -- the idea that there are certain elements to survival that go beyond just food and shelter somewhat remain.</p>

<p>The Ik are interesting in the sense that while we're appalled at the thought of stealing food from others, I can at least understand the self-preservation instinct. It's certainly a matter of short-term thinking, but when the short-term may be all you have, then there's not much room for thinking about a long-term which may not exist.</p>

<p>Our short-term thinking, in my opinion, is more driven by consumerism. We have to have the latest and the greatest in just about everything... and we have to have it right now. Not to say that I didn't have such things when I was in high school, but when I was in high school, the in-thing was the right outfits. Having a cell phone just really wasn't an option because it would take up 15% of my backpack. :)</p>

<p>And the most immediate goal for these students are either high scores and/or college admission to their "dream college". But these are both short-term goals, and perhaps some of the issue is that students these days have a more difficult time seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. "When are we finally going to be done with school?"</p>

<p>Shoot, a hundred years ago, an eighth-grade education was relatively commonplace and maybe even on the advanced side. You simply didn't "need" the education. Now, to admit that you're only going to finish schooling with an eighth-grade education would be considered ludicrous.</p>

<p>But seriously, what are some of these students going to do with their Harvard education? Or their MIT education? Or Stanford? What are these colleges actually going to do for them?</p>

<p>I usually end up writing letters of recommendation for about three to four students a year to get into Stanford (it's usually the "elite" school of choice among students at my west-coast school). Usually one or two of them actually receive acceptance, and many of those students come back and chat during the Winter Break. And what happens frequently among those students that have gotten in there is that they come back and say, "Yeah, Stanford just wasn't quite what I was looking for."</p>

<p>People hold these elite colleges up as the ultimate goal, and don't realize that there's something past that. And when they do... it tends to be a rude awakening.</p>

<p>And that's really true whether someone cheats or not, but when they say "the ends justify the means", I think a lot of times people think the ends are different than they actually turn out to be.</p>

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<p>Your points are interesting to think about. </p>

<p>I recently read an article that said that many Harvard Freshman who had consciously worked toward "getting into Harvard," for many years, suffered a lot of depression once they got there. Because the goal wasn't what Harvard offered, or what they could learn there, it was just getting in. After that, what?</p>

<p>Hopefully, there is then a transition, at which point, they might not cheat anymore!</p>

<p>Maybe cheating decreases as students get older and are better able to defer gratification, as you imply, at least in some cases. It would be interesting to poll graduate students, perhaps.</p>

<p>I think one of the main influences in all this is the emphasis on external motivators and assessments of learning, including grades, state exams, SAT's and college admissions. While these external motivators can help kids gain basic skills in the early grades (reading stickers and competitions), I think that a net loss in learning must occur, because the motivation is not genuine, but propped up by rewards. Some kids won't read now, unless they get some candy or something!</p>

<p>Anyway, all the talk about getting ahead in life is interesting to a person in her 50's. My generation was driving cabs and waitressing, to stay away from the "military-industrial complex." Of course, a lot of those people went back to get their MBA's when their electric guitar broke, or something, but things are so different (as they always are, and pretty soon I will be saying I walked 5 miles to school).</p>

<p>My son is soon to enter corporate America. When I told him he didn't have to be in the rat race, he replied that he "loves the rat race." I actually think he is much more capable of long-range thinking than I was: he will make money, then teach or do service. He has a plan and some sense of the future. At his age, I felt like the world was ending, and did not have much ability to think ahead. </p>

<p>When you write about survival going beyond the physical needs, and extending to the psychic or emotional needs, I was again thinking about your "utility." People who guide their conduct with a "means to an end" mentality, are also trying to survive. They are one step above physical survival, but still well below the kind of emotional or spiritual survival that makes life more livable. So, in the sense, perhaps people are starving psychically, and the result is the same kind of dramatic hustle as the Ik showed, for food- only it's for Harvard and Yale...</p>

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<p>It's not just the teens who are unethical nowadays, though when we grow up I doubt we will change our mindsets, so it will take a while for the pendulum to swing back.</p>

<p>I remember watching a documentary about investment banks during the 90s--it mentioned that Chase Bank was formerly known as "Mother Chase," as it would go to great lengths to take care of its employees and went through the Great Depression in the 30s without a single layoff. Then, during the prosperity of the 90s, its investors pushed it into a merger with another bank to improve profitability and it laid off thousands of people. </p>

<p>I treat people as I expect them to treat me--I will be quite honest with friends/family and certainly not steal from them or cheat them, but being honest in the corporate world? Come on. </p>

<p>And I agree that Harvard/Stanford can be letdowns. I chose my school based on cost of attendance and average starting salary for my major (high). Don't care about prestige as long as the paychecks come in. But if I have to pay someone to write my MBA essays for me, I won't be having a great ethical dilemma about it (given that MBA is all prestige/connections).</p>

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<p>Those top executives usually walk away with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars by the time their businesses collapse.</p>

<p>And the people actually caught cheating in college are just the tip of the iceberg. 90 or 95% of the time, it doesn't come back to haunt you.</p>

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<p>Piterbizon, I agree that it is not just kids, and wrote about that quite a bit before. I was just kind of responding to MathProf's ideas about younger people. Everything from lying presidents to white collar crime to torture of prisoners, etc...adults are not good models.</p>

<p>It didn't work to drop out (how can anyone make a living for a family with the jobs I mentioned), so one option is to remain in the system, cynically, and just get what you can from it. I understand that, but I like to think there are other options.</p>

<p>My own family owned a big investment firm in the 1920's. My great grandfather lost everything because he paid his shareholders and employees from his own pocket. The family went from owning a big steamship w/staff, at least 3 houses etc. to the wife being a hostess in a restaurant. ( My great grandfather died of the stress.) That sure isn't happening nowadays!</p>

146

<p>Very true about the utility calculator or what ever it was called. If i think that cheating will get me the grade, and there isnt a good chance of being caught; then i will go ahead and perform. </p>

<p>Also-i cheat in highschool but do not plan to cheat in college. Why? Because of the no tolerance policy that most schools use. In highschool, the toughest punishment i have ever recieved for cheating is F on a paper. A little slap on the wrist and lecture about how your morals are wrong, kind of like some people of this thread lol. But do they realize that when they tell me that i am wrong and they are right, isnt that hypocritical just a tad bit. After all, treat others the way you want to be treated is the "golden rule", the most basic guide line we teach our children. I can tell you one thing, i would not like to have any one tell me that the way i live my life is wrong, that the choices i make everyday have been wrong and that i need to change now.</p>

<p>No, you live your life and i will live mine, both of us abiding by our own moral codes. If you dont like the way the results come out, then dont complain about how unfair life is, change what your doing. Survival of the fittest, ruthless mentality, how far your willing to go. If everyone cheated, then no one would be cheating at all.</p>

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<p>First off, I am not a fan of moral relativity. I do understand some shades of grey, but in my mind there are MANY definite rights and wrongs.</p>

<p>Now, from a more utilitarian standpoint...
Society is based on mutual benefits, or at the minimum a limitation of injury to others. One of the cornerstones in this plan is trust. If someone promises to help in return for help recieved, but then fails to deliver upon the agreement, trust is lost, individuals and groups no longer deal cooperatively and a very nasty anarchy ensues. Therefore, society places value in trust. What happens when individuals and groups habitually lie about things? I assert a level of trust is lost. I believe the threshold of moral acceptance is lowered over time, as people continually rationalize breaches in trust. Dishonest dealings may benefit the individual, but contribute to a decline in society (ENRON...)</p>

<p>Let's not try to fool ourselves. When we cheat, we ARE lying. We claim, whether by actual words or simply by implication, that work we have not done is ours. Most people do this in order to gain material wealth or status. While dishonest actions may not directly harm others (most often they do), they certainly detract from the level of trust in society (with corresponding changes in cooperation and development, IMO). Perhaps you do not value the advancement of society as I do, but I think most would agree a better society leads to a better quality of life. (Barrons in medieval europe had it better than most, but not nearly as good as the middle class today...) In that respect, it is in the interest of all to maintain honest relations (by honest actions).</p>

<p>Alexzeig, I think you are twisting the golden rule. While no one likes being corrected, it is usually done for the good of both parties. For example, if I am at the firing range and were to break a safety rule, I would likely be corrected (in harsh terms). Not only does this protect others from my incompetance, but it protects me from responsibility for negligent manslaughter! Therefore, I DO want to be corrected for my errors (of course, I appreciate gentle corrections). Such actions are inherently benefitial to me, because they prevent harsher outcomes. I view penalties for cheating in school the same way. If a person habitually cheats (let's say trading information with friends to score better), those habits are likely to lead to more severe consequences (just ask Martha Stewart)...and humans ARE creatures of habit. Actions practiced early in life are highly likely to be repeated later on.</p>

148

<p>raimus, society is based upon dishonest dealings and the ones you read about on the newspaper were the ones dumb enough to get caught, or who took the cheating to such a flagrant extreme - the Enrons of the academic world are detrimental to academic society. The minor cheaters are as well, but they are receiving both short term and long term gain if and only if, they are able to not be caught, and cheat with an overall sense and logic. </p>

<p>And this idea that some hand of justice will eventually crush cheaters and deliver their karma... we see it happen once or twice and then we say that it happens to all cheaters. It doesnt, and we all know that, we just say that it does.</p>

<p>What percentage of the 64% will ever be caught cheating? And those that are caught get caught because they are dumb, not because the US is good at weeding out cheaters. </p>

<p>Is there a problem with HS ethics? Sure there is. Is there a problem with the ethics of humans? Of course. Even if you believe humans are very good beings on the whole, I think you have your head buried in the sand if you dont think humans are universally predisposed to 'forgetting' about their moral codes when it behooves them to. Its just part of the yin and yang of what humans are.</p>

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<p>geek_mom, have a cookie. While you have contributed more to society throughout the decades than a youngster, it doesnt mean that a youngster now wont contribute more. Once someone is legally an adult, they are considered equal and thats that. We don't do franchisement based on intelligence or experience, my adult rights are the same as yours. Not only are young adults equal in the eyes of the law to elders, who do you think will be driving the economy? Keeping America on the map in terms of research and technology? (Not) Paying for your generations SS? Even in politics, there has been a shift towards emphasis on the young voter and the stereotypically young type of thinking. </p>

<p>Age and veneration, having lived through a bunch of good times and bad times, means less than you think when we are talking about potential to contribute to society or whether or not you 'know what you're talking about'. Young adults drive society.</p>

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<p>Wow, Nick, that was more than a little disrespectful. So I guess by your own logic of equality, you don't deserve respect either.</p>

<p>What have you done to drive society so far, Nick017? Cheat on your high school tests? Well, what a fantastic contribution.</p>

<p>What you've acknowledged in your penultimate post is that yes, there ARE problems with high school ethics and human ethics, and that it's simply part of the "yin and yang" inherent nature of humans. So we should just accept these problems and not try to change them? It sounds like you're preventing society from moving forward, not driving it.</p>

<p>And the bit about "forgetting" your moral codes? You're saying that a person will cheat and then go, "Oh. Whoops. I forgot that I despise cheating of all kinds and that I believe that it's a contemptible act," when he/she is in a situation where cheating is a possibility. Apparently you're unaware of this, but a lot of people have moral codes that they don't just forget and that they do stick to. Why? Because they believe in them.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
No, young Padawan, you are not my "equal." What you are an example of is the hubris of sheltered youth. You have a very, very long way to go before you can pretend to counsel adults without sending me into peals of laughter.</p>

<p>You (most likely) have not given birth.
You have not fed yourself for a week on five dollars.
You have not agonized over whether to pay all the bills at once or let one slip till payday so you can buy gas to get to work.
You have not owned and maintained a home, where there is no landlord or maintenance man who will take care of things when the roof leaks or the water main bursts.
You have not put yourself through grad school while working full time, raising a small child alone, and maintaining professional commitments in your field.
You have not dragged your butt out of bed after a total of six hours' sleep in the past 48, because your child was awake and needed to be fed.
You have not planned a college course and taught it to students whose only concern -- at first -- was getting an A in the class.
You have not defended yourself against the schemes of an incompetent goof whose plan for personal success was to take credit for your work.
You have not hired, supervised, or fired people.
You have not talked a drunkard down from a potentially violent confrontation.
You have not helped a friend move in the span of three hours while her live-in boyfriend was away.
You have not spoken with a woman who is in the county jail because she couldn't stand being abused anymore, and killed her husband.</p>

<p>You see, there are many, many situations in life that you can't cheat your way through.</p>

<p>Your less than two decades' worth of experience is nothing compared with what I have lived through, nor what people I've known have lived through. Your experience is nothing compared with what any adult you meet has lived through. You have never been responsible for your own life and livelihood, nor for that of another who is wholly dependent on you.</p>

<p>Your points are not every bit as valid as mine, and here's why: Mine are tested and proven through unsheltered experience. Yours are untested outside the shelter of a home and a living that are provided for you by adults who care for you and run offense for you. Until you've tested and refined your ideas about Life, the Universe and Everything in the real world, when there is no safety net and the stakes include your life and more... those ideas of yours are purely theoretical. You don't know enough to know what you don't know.</p>

<p>That is no criticism of you; at your age, you're not expected to. Nor are you expected to have had your personal Copernican revolution yet. But don't expect any adult to read these words of yours and think that you, a self-centered pup who crumbles under the pressure of a high school Italian class, are worthy of the respect you demand as an "equal."

[/quote]

I couldn't stop laughing. So you > him because you're older? Nice making the age fallacy.</p>

<p>Nah, what you described may be true, but that's a big assumption. I know people my age that's probably done 1/2 the things on your list, and such. Also that's simply ridiculous to say 'you didn't do X therefore you're not qualified and you aren't equal to my footing', there's no exact set of arbitrary values and experiences that makes someone "qualified" on equal footing. </p>

<p>If this is the condescending type of post that you as an adult takes saying that you're superior and ignoring his actual arguments but going onto his age, I can't take you seriously whether whatever age you might be.</p>

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<p>My advanced biology class is sort of an automatic A class (actually A+). Basically your grade depends on copying information off texts and the teacher's lecture notes. However, everyone enjoys this class and I've never seen so many students interested in learning science. Even students who normally do nothing or goof around in class are asking questions and doing experiments with enthusiasm.</p>

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<p>“The error of youth is to believe that intelligence is a substitute for experience, while the error of age is to believe experience is a substitute for intelligence”</p>

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<p>Just my input: I definitely agree that there are some moral issues in high school. </p>

<p>These issues can be seen outside of academics. People putting each other down, people behaving rudely towards others, people being methodical in taking advantage of others, etc. I will not go into this.</p>

<p>I will not go too far and say that people who cheat in high school are downright immoral. Junior year was especially stressful for many of my classmates. They were buried in ECs and often came home very late to start to do hw + study. Many had to end up copying homework + cheating on tests. Why did they? Simply because the emphasis colleges place on GPA and they were not willing to risk going to a lesser college. I was able to somewhat understand why they did what they did. </p>

<p>Granted there were definitely some people who were just plain too lazy to study or used their time very inefficiently and cheated on everything. It was towards these people that I harbored the most ill feelings for.</p>

<p>Was I angry whenever I saw someone cheat? Yes, I was ever irritated at some of my friends for cheating. But what could I have possibly done? Going to a school where the vast majority of people attended the same preschool, elementary school, and junior high, many people would not go to the principal, teachers, school board, etc to complain about their peers cheating in either loyalty to them or out of fear that they would be known throughout high school as a snitch. </p>

<p>My time in high school has made me realize that there is absolutely NO SUCH THING AS KARMA. Never once had I seen a person get punished severely for cheating. The most it always ever amounted to was an F for the particular assignment or test that the person cheated on. Many lazy + procrastinating people I saw did not even feel the slightest regret for what they did and it made me even more angry how they felt they were entitled to go to a good college because our high school was competitive. It was they who unfairly set the curves which made it competitive...</p>

<p>In the end though, I feel that we must look to ourselves and not others. I recall many instances that I could have cheated and gotten the good grade. When applying to colleges, I just could not shake the "What if's" from my head. But I see that the root of my dissatisfaction came from me comparing myself to others. Yes, there were many people who had better grades than me who did not deserve them. But this had been out of my control. I rather move on from this and look forward to college where I know cheating results in expulsion. Cheating may still happen. But seriously, whatever...dwelling on this is not good for the soul=]</p>

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<p>Cheaters may not be immoral, but people that cheat and see nothing wrong with it are certainly amoral.</p>

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<p>Thiscouldbeheavn:
That's a great distinction...your posts are helpful. The "amoral" attitudes are what puzzle me, meaning the fact that so many don't understand at all why cheating might be wrong, including many otherwise "good" kids.</p>

<p>MiniatureDrone: Your post, like asfh09's and a few others, is heartening. I think looking to ourselves is a good, sane way to go. I would add that although students can do little about others' cheating, in the moment, over time I think it will become clear that our schools really have to take some action to correct not only the behavior, but some of the causes of cheating and the other behaviors you mention. Good luck in whatever you end up doing for college!</p>

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<p>The child is the one who thinks he is equal to all others because he simply exists.
The young adult is the one who knows he can learn from another’s experiences.</p>

<p>To quote Mark Twain: "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."</p>

<p>I have found that more high schoolers feel they are adults deserving equal footing than do my peers at the graduate school level. Ironic, no? It is interesting how, as you age, you realize how little you actually knew before.</p>

<ul>
<li>From a TRUE young ADULT who was only recently in your shoes.</li>
</ul>

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<p>Invoyable: I don't think that he/she was saying that you are inferior because you are younger, simply that you are NOT on equal footing as an adult because you have simply reached a certain age. </p>

<p>Maybe this is not true about you, but in general kids around the 18-20 age think that they are on equal footing as adults simply because they are so sheltered and haven't been out in the real world. They think that their accomplishments match up with that of real adults because they haven't actually lived on their own had to deal with real-world issues. </p>

<p>Experience AND wisdom/intelligence are important, not one or the other. Kids around 18 range very rarely have both of these while adults usually do. </p>

<p>I realize that I have a hell of a lot to learn from the old folks and having been out in the real world it's pretty interesting seeing some of the same kids who think that "I'm 18-21 and an ADULT and know everything" get eaten alive.</p>

<p>Back to the original topic: If you have cheated and gotten away with it good for you. I have never cheated in college and never will (HS was a different story but that was 5-6 years ago and I'm not that person anymore) but if you can live with yourself getting grades you don't deserve then go for it. I go to bed at night knowing that the A's I get in my classes I earned. Usually those that cheat have other moral/personal issues that end up being their downfall anyway.</p>

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<p>Cheaters will get theres eventually, because if they're cheating right now in high school and find nothing wrong with it, they will probably cheat in college and just in life in general. I think kids cheat in high school because the punishments just aren't that intimidating. More punitive measures might help with the problem, because at my school you barely get a slap on the wrist. I think it's that way at a lot of high schools. In the real world or even in college the punishments will be worse. Whether they will eventually get caught is up in the air, but just remember you won't have your mommy and daddy there to stick up for you. </p>

<p>Everyone in my high schools ask what they're losing by cheating? How can you go wrong, you don't have to study and you get the grades, right? You're losing knowledge. I know that sounds cheesy, but cheaters miss out. I think the problem with our society is we don't value knowledge or just learning for the sake of learning. It's all about your grades, gpa, and test scores. What about what books you've read and what's going on in the world? GAHHH I just needed to rant.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Invoyable: I don't think that he/she was saying that you are inferior because you are younger, simply that you are NOT on equal footing as an adult because you have simply reached a certain age.</p>

<p>Maybe this is not true about you, but in general kids around the 18-20 age think that they are on equal footing as adults simply because they are so sheltered and haven't been out in the real world. They think that their accomplishments match up with that of real adults because they haven't actually lived on their own had to deal with real-world issues.</p>

<p>Experience AND wisdom/intelligence are important, not one or the other. Kids around 18 range very rarely have both of these while adults usually do.</p>

<p>I realize that I have a hell of a lot to learn from the old folks and having been out in the real world it's pretty interesting seeing some of the same kids who think that "I'm 18-21 and an ADULT and know everything" get eaten alive.

[/quote]

I understand, and I always skim posts so I may have disregarded her intentions.</p>

<p>There are kids that think they know everything while they lack total experience, but also there are many that are far from such.</p>