Likely to fail if I go to a reach and want to major in "hard" sciences

Parent Cafe
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<p>Actually, plenty of people do skip freshman calculus successfully, although it is probably most likely for those who took BC in one year (not over two years as seems to the the current watering down trend) and found that getting an A in the class and a 5 on the test was easy for them. The students who struggled to get a 3 or 4 on the AB test may not be particularly well prepared to skip the first semester of freshman calculus.</p>

<p>However, note that math, physics, and engineering degree programs at most schools are structured so that a student starting in first semester freshman calculus can complete the bachelor’s degree in eight semesters (or twelve quarters on a quarter system). Starting in a more advanced math course may be nice (more schedule flexibility later), but not required, except at a very small number of schools (Caltech, Harvey Mudd, WUStL).</p>

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<p>When we visited MIT last year, our tour guide (a junior, I believe) was asked about academic support for students outside the classroom. She said that it was great, and then she went on to describe her own situation. She hadn’t taken Calculus or Physics in high school, and didn’t even know the word “vector” before coming to MIT. And yet, there she was, succeeding at a top school.</p>

<p>Moral of the story: This is doable if you really want it.</p>

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This is a pretty strange comment. High quality BC Calculus courses are pretty common, and many successful STEM students skip Calc I and II.</p>

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<p>Well, guess what? While you are NOT likely to fail, you just might. And it won’t be the end of the world either. You might find something you love more (and are good at as well). I know maybe a half dozen “failed engineers” who have gone on to wonderful, exciting, remunerative careers having nothing to do with engineering. Several of them make more (if that matters) than they would likely ever have had they remained in engineering. </p>

<p>Be flexible! Learn as you go. There’s a whole big world out there.</p>

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<p>^MisterK it doesn’t matter how many times some of us say that our kids did just fine not repeating calculus, many seem to feel that the easy A is the way to go. I don’t understand it.</p>

<p>My older son would have been bored to tears retaking calculus, not to mention that he used the space in his schedule to take more advanced computer science and physics courses rather than repeating stuff he already knew. I suspect that those advanced courses didn’t hurt him when it came to being employed.</p>

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<p>^ Exactly. If you can handle it, then why not dive in and take the appropriate higher level courses? You’re paying for an education, and there you are - so grab it!</p>

<p>Even if you’d like a few easy A’s, there are plenty of those courses around, and many of them are actually interesting. It would be awfully boring to sit through something you’ve already mastered.</p>

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<p>I think there’s some apples-and-oranges comparisons going on here.</p>

<p>My children’s college is one of the places where very sophisticated math students congregate, and a place that strongly believes everyone should take calculus, but it doesn’t make that a requirement for admission. It has at least 14 different levels of math into which it places new students, and 10 of those are called “calculus.” About 80% of new students are placed in one of those calculus courses, and I believe well over half of them have taken AP Calculus or the equivalent. </p>

<p>The college’s experience, as reflected in its program design, is that most first-year students with AP Calculus BC under their belts are not prepared for that university’s upper-level math courses. Some, however clearly are ready, and some would be with a one-quarter class on proofs. Most of those, however, do not reach college with AP Calculus BC as the highest-level math course they have taken. There is a huge range of abilities and knowledge base even among the population of students who got 5s on their AP Calculus BC exams . . . because AP Calculus does not teach or test everything the university covers in its more-challenging calculus classes, but it doesn’t prevent students from learning those things, either.</p>

<p>So, sure, some students are ready to skip calculus when they get to college. And some aren’t. It isn’t one-size-fits-all, even for AP Calculus BC stars. </p>

<p>And all of that is completely distracting and confusing for the OP in this thread, because he or she should NOT be thinking about skipping anything.</p>

<p>The whole premise of this thread is seriously off. Seriously, seriously off. This is not about, and should not be about, whether the OP can keep pace with students who come to college far more prepared than he or she. Trying that, especially as a freshman, is a real recipe for disaster, on every front. The question should be whether the college in question offers students like the OP a path to the degree the OP wants that starts at the beginning, where the OP is, not in the middle, where some other students are. The college I discussed above, which can place students into a class that supposedly rival Harvard’s Math 55 as the most challenging freshman math class, also offers a path for students who arrive at college with no calculus, or not even ready for calculus, to advance to higher-level math classes, too.</p>

<p>My bet is that the college the OP is talking about does that, too. And if it does, and if the OP can resist the peer pressure to try to advance too quickly because everybody else seems to be doing it and bragging about it (on CC, too), the OP can get a first-class education at a great college without performing miracles or scraping by with an awful GPA. But it’s going to be hard for him or her to do that if the only stories people can tell is how their superior kids blew off all the “boring” stuff the OP has yet to learn.</p>

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<p>Thanks JHS, I really appreciate the comment.</p>

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<p>I also think that OP (who was able to do well on standardized tests despite poor high school instruction) would be fine attending the reach school, but might have to learn to ignore peers who brag about how little they study for their A’s. Some of those peers are studying more than they let on, and some have already seen the material, either in other coursework or by reviewing the text prior to taking the class.</p>

<p>In some ways, a student who has had poor high school instruction and has had to get used to learning outside of school and asking for help might even have a leg up on students who have always had good teachers, since the latter sometimes get blindsided the first time they realize, in mid-semester or so, that their professor has no clue on how to teach even if they care about whether students are learning, and that students are on their own when it comes to mastering the material.</p>

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<p>JHS - I’m not sure whether you actually read the thread, but you seem to be in violent agreement with everybody who has posted. Nobody has suggested that the OP try to jump in and keep pace with freshmen who have stronger qualifications. Everyone has encouraged the student to to follow the the dream, and to take advantage of the support.</p>

<p>It’s true that Modamunn changed the topic to well-qualified students, but nobody is suggesting that the OP come in and start skipping classes, lol.</p>

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<p>While I could take offense at the tone and somewhat inferred reference here, I’ll choose not to. Or maybe not…</p>

<p>I don’t think you need to load up on AP BC, AP physics etc to do far better at the college level than the kid who didn’t. And just to be really clear, never assume that just because a kid gets an A that he went for the “easy A.” It comes off as entirely (and unnecessarily) condescending. And “successful” as used above - is that a qualifier to imply that those who have not taken such courses are going to be unsuccessful or even less so? </p>

<p>Point of fact, my kid has gotten plenty of A’s, both in HS and College. Nope, not a perfect student and tends to love a good time as well. But he is doing far more than merely fine at his well reputed school, and has definitely surpassed quite a few of his fellow students who came in having spent their HS careers engrossed in the math and science wing, including publishing research and winning Intel Science awards. While he was in honors science classes in HS, he had exactly one AP science:AP Bio. He took AP’s in Calc AB, History (2), Latin (2), English and Econ. Frankly, all that Latin has proven to be one of his most helpful HS classes to him as a science major! Additionally, according to the recently updated profile for the class of 2012, there have been exactly six 4.0 students in the last 30 years to graduate from his HS. There are no easy A’s, no bubble exams, and no weighting of GPAs. And the bottom line as it pertains to the OP - it really does depend on your major and what your future plans might be. Organic Chemistry, advanced levels of Molecular Genetics and Biochemistry coursework seem to be far more relevant to the MCAT and gaining acceptance to Medical School and Phd programs in the sciences than any math course. In fact, most Med Schools and dual MD/Phd programs only expect Calc I, if that. Again, it depends on what you want to do.</p>

<p>Finally, my comment about taking Calc again at the college of attendance was directed to the OP who is thinking about taking it at CC over the summer. And if your not a math mensa and had yet to take AB, let alone BC Calc, I think taking a true college level course is a good idea. </p>

<p>And as a complete aside: While the above quoted posters might believe their students are the smartest kids in the room and always have been, I don’t believe for a minute that any 17/18 year old can legitimately say they’ve “mastered” any subject, especially those taken in HS (AP, CIS or whatever). And I am sure S would never be so emboldened to say he’s “mastered” all the content in any course, even those where he’s received an A before any curve entered the equation. After all, and especially at the college level, there is a professor in front of him who I’m assuming probably knows just a tad more. And he/she is writing the recommendations. And while I am admittedly assuming, they tend to not be huge fans of hubris at their expense.</p>

<p>While I agree that taking a class well below your level of expertise would be boring and a waste of credit hours, that’s not the question the OP was asking. He was trying to formulate a plan in order to be as successful as he can and wanting to do it at a school that was a reach to gain admittance. I think it is unkind, unnecessary and irrelevant to essentially intimidate a kid who is merely trying to discover the best way in which he can achieve his potential. Obviously, your kids (and to some extent mine) has been there and done that. I don’t suggest we all fall on our swords and allow the OP to believe it’s a cake walk, but I do believe that there are hugely successful people in the science world who either did not plan or even suspect that they were going to find their passions in science, technology, engineering or math before college. </p>

<p>OP is interested in science. And I am here to tell him, and quite emphatically at that, that not only can a kid come to the table a little late, if he is willing to be humble and work to the best of his ability, he can achieve to an equal and even greater measure than his fellow students who have every single AP math and science course on their transcript that their HS offered, and have spent their summers at Stanford and Brown summer research camps etc. Don’t be intimated. If the college admitted you, they have faith in you. But it won’t do you any good unless you just go out there and have a little faith in yourself.</p>

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<p>When did I bring up a differential between well qualified students vs any other? It is my opinion (as stated above) that if you are admitted you are considered well qualified to do the work. Period. I just don’t think you have to get 10 steps ahead in HS to find a very successful STEM career and was not the OPs question.</p>

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<p>Frazzeled: I agree whole heartedly with every word you wrote. And that is why in my initial post I referenced the need to research the school’s academic support services. It has been my experience over the course of three kids applying to college that very often those schools with the lowest acceptance rates have the best resources for their students. But you still have to be an self-motivated student willing to ask questions and seek help, especially as you point out when landing a professor who is not as good a teacher or the TA at the University who is teaching merely to cover his own tuition.</p>

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<p>Most people who major in science and math and most people in STEM-related careers did not, and do not, go to top universities. They also don’t end up with 4.0 GPAs. (In fact, the largest number of people in a STEM-related career are nurses.) If you go to a top university, chances are: 1) Opportunities for academic support services are greater; 2) Chances for landing in the top of the class are less. (That would seem obvious to me.) </p>

<p>Some students end up majoring in the sciences having had no real interest in science when they got there. Some students who thought they’d major in the sciences end up in art history. And some future physicians major in music.</p>

<p>It’s a big world out there!</p>

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<p>To everyone who contributed to this thread:
Thank you so much. Reading all of your comments is helping my decision. I am still not fully decided, but I think that the first thing I need to do is to contact the reach college and ask about the typical support they provide for someone with my academic background trying to major in one of the hard sciences.</p>

<p>If I perceive that they are confident they can provide a good route for me, I am likely to go to the more selective college. If they answer with a “well, maybe… you will need to make an unusual effort”, then I will go to the state school.</p>

<p>I am the OP an I approve this message :slight_smile: .</p>

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<p>Sorry about the snotty tone and detour. (That said why don’t colleges just design courses for the preparation the students are likely to have had. It’s not a secret what is covered in the two AP Calc courses.) </p>

<p>As to the OP, many colleges do indeed have multiple levels of Calculus. I think it’s a great idea to take a Calculus course over the summer. Many colleges will have a placement exam for math which you take over the summer or during orientation. He doesn’t have to fear getting in over his head. If he does want to attend the reach, and I think he should seriously consider it, he can spend more of his first year getting rid of all his General Education requirements and less of it getting a jump on his major. </p>

<p>I did know plenty of students at my Ivy whose preparation was less than adequate and they had to play catch up. Some did very well, and some did okay. Most of the students who did poorly had mental health issues that manifested themselves while they were there - or they just partied too much.</p>

<p>In any event I wish him/her luck whatever the decision is.</p>

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<p>I took a look at the Harvard math curriculum possibilities, at [Harvard</a> Mathematics Department : Courses in Mathematics (2011-2012)](<a href=“http://www.math.harvard.edu/pamphlets/courses.html]Harvard”>http://www.math.harvard.edu/pamphlets/courses.html)</p>

<p>For a student who has not taken calculus before college, it is possible to major in mathematics and complete the degree within four years. However, the undergraduate degree programs look very different for such a student vs. a student who has already taken calculus, and does not repeat the course at the most elementary level.</p>

<p>The math majors can be grouped into three “typical” sets:<br>
a) Those who start in Math 1a (no pre-college calculus, or who repeat the basic calculus course)
b) Those who start in Math 21
c) Those who start in Math 23, 25, or 55</p>

<p>Sophomores in group a) will be in the same courses as freshmen in group b). When the students in group a) become juniors, they will have one course in common with the sophomores in group b). Even as juniors, they will still never encounter the students in group c), because the students in group c) are taking more advanced courses. </p>

<p>When the students in group a) become seniors, they will take two more of the courses that students in group b) are taking as sophomores. They will take three of the four courses that students in group c) take as sophomores. One of the courses that students in group c) take as sophomores, students in group a) never take. </p>

<p>During the junior and senior years, students in group b) take seven math courses that students in group a) never take; students in group c) take eight math courses that students in group a) never take. Students in groups b) and c) typically take two graduate math courses.</p>

<p>Harvard advises students against trying to jump ahead, into courses for which they are not prepared. A student who can “do the work” on track a) probably cannot “do the work” on track c). So, while the degrees are nominally the same, they are not truly equivalent.</p>

<p>To graduate with departmental honors in mathematics (cum laude, magna cum laude, or summa cum laude) a student has to submit a thesis, based on the student’s research. A student can graduate with university honors (which appear to be limited to cum laude) based solely on the university GPA, without fulfulling the thesis requirement. So the student on track a) would have to find a thesis adviser willing to work with him/her, to graduate with higher honors.</p>

<p>I haven’t looked to see how Harvard physics handles its courses–the students in that major might meet up sooner, regardless of preparation. </p>

<p>But to sum it up: I think that a student who would like to continue in a math/science field, either in grad school or in post BA employment, would be well-advised to plan to graduate on par with students who entered with stronger preparation. This looks really hard–or essentially impossible–with the 4-year Harvard program. So I think that a 5-year plan (or a pre-college gap year with academic preparation + a 4-year degree) would be a good idea for Inpersonal, if he is really committed to a “hard science” field.</p>

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<p>Sure, there are plenty of college freshmen who would be bored silly in first year calculus. Based on what I read in here there are plenty who would be bored to tears in Complex Analysis. But some folks seem to have a lot of confidence in the Calculus BC exam as a sole arbiter of that. I think you can score 65% on that test and get a 5. THere’s a significant difference between a kid who squeaked by with a 66, and one who scored 100% with one lemma tied behind their back.</p>

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<p><a href=“That%20said%20why%20don’t%20colleges%20just%20design%20courses%20for%20the%20preparation%20the%20students%20are%20likely%20to%20have%20had.%20It’s%20not%20a%20secret%20what%20is%20covered%20in%20the%20two%20AP%20Calc%20courses.”>quote</a>

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<p>I think they do and is why they let kids either place out of intro levels or take placement exams. Just because high school x taught these components and high school y had a curriculum that covered that, doesn’t mean that either school is up to the pedagogy or depth that college A requires, which might very well be different from what college B does.</p>

<p>Suggestion to OP. Go to both college websites and search: Student Academic Support or Academic Tutoring. Before you call a professor/administrator, do your research. I just did this for Dartmouth, Yale and Ohio State University. Easily found. And if it’s not easily found online, I can almost guarantee you that it won’t be easily found on campus either. And while all of the above schools provide free tutoring, not all do. With the research done, you will be in a much better position to ask the relevant questions.</p>

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<p>Get the stats. It is a fact of life that engineering, math, sciences, premed type programs have high changes in major. This is true in many if not most schools. Look at what the preparation is of most kids going to your school and having your major. Talk to someone about this.</p>

<p>My DH went to a top school without having had calculus in high school. He was actively discouraged from being a math major for that reason and because he came from a not so great high school. Yet, he persevered and ended up graduating with honors in mathematics, one of the few that year. So it can be done. But you have to understand that it is going to take putting the old nose to the grindstone on your part. Something tough to do if you have been breezing through all of your courses throughout your life. That was a problem my older kids had. They were not sufficiently challenged until they hit the harder courses in the upper levels and their lack of experience in studying, and sticking to a subject became apparent. My one son who was not considered as " smart" as his brothers has been doing well consistently because he has always had to work hard, keep notes, study and stay on top of his academics and put the time into them. It was not a big deal to have to do it in college because that’s what school always was for him.</p>