Looking for advice about universities in Europe

Student Lounge International Students
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I’ve always planned on going out of the US and into Europe for my (master’s/phD) studies after I obtain a bachelor’s degree. My plan would then be to obtain a job in whatever country I get a terminal degree in, and settle down there permanently. I recently started looking at potential non-US universities for a bachelor’s degree, though, and I have a couple questions.

First, some background. One of the universities I especially like is TalTech (Tallinn University of Technology), which is located in Estonia. It has a 3-year BA program, taught in English, for Law - I would pick the EU and International Law specialty. I’ve also looked at Tallinn University, some universities in Poland, and I’m still searching for more in Northern and/or Eastern Europe. The two universities in Tallinn are my favorites, though. My end goal is either to go into academia (i.e. as a professor) or work as a lawyer/advisor/etc. for some kind of human rights organization.

I would intend to stay in Estonia and/or the EU in general after graduation, first to get a graduate degree and then, hopefully, to work and obtain permanent residency. I was wondering what would happen if those plans fell apart after I obtain my bachelor’s. If there was a problem with staying in Estonia - such as if I couldn’t get a job, or get into a graduate program, or otherwise get a visa/residency permit - would my degree allow me to get admitted into grad school programs back in America? I’m especially concerned because I don’t know how well the universities I’m looking at are known in general American grad schools, though American schools would only be my back-up plan.

Another, more practical, question is about the language. All the programs I’m looking at are taught in English, since I don’t know enough of any other language to take all my classes in it. I know that Russian isn’t the official language of Estonia, but it seems to be fairly widely spoken as a minority language. I’ll graduate with classes up to either Russian 2 or Russian 4 - depending on if the Dual Enrollment Russian 3 class fills up before I’m able to enroll or not - so hopefully that can help me get around in places where English cannot. I would also start to learn Estonian if I get admitted and decide on that university (or maybe beforehand, since languages are fun), and then continue to learn it even more once I’ll there and immersed in it. Does that sound like a decent plan? I’ve read that more young people than older people speak English, so there’s that.

If anyone has answers to my questions or other, more general advice, I’d love to hear it!

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To become a professor requires a PhD- and these days career in academia is as high-risk an undertaking as going into the arts for a career.

To work as a lawyer in Estonia, you have to be fluent in Estonian, be a legal resident or citizen, pass an exam and have the academic qualifications.

To get a student visa is easy; for a residence visa the rules vary somewhat by country, but none of them are easy.

Studying in Estonia, Poland, etc will have a lot of second tier challenges. For example, the program may be in English, but many of the people around the program will not have strong English- and university bureaucracies are bureaucracies anywhere! Sorting out the ordinary snafus of student life will be that bit harder. You will be able to get around Tallinn with English, but Russian is less and less useful by the year- the 20% who are Russian speakers trend older.

Also, assessment is likely to be largely by end of term exam- it may well be the only form (ie, no continuing assessment such as homework, essays, quizzes, attendance, participation, midterms).

The university experience is much less campus-centric, more like a US commuter college. As an American you will be something of a novelty, which makes initially introductions easier, but you have to work to build your own social life- something that suits some people more than others.

Finally, there will be much, much, much less support than in the US:, the system overall is much less personal.

In theory, if you finish the law program you can do a 1 year LLM in the US, take the NY bar and practice in the US. Your employment odds in the US will be stronger if you can get into a top LLM program, which is likely to require getting some good work experience first. As an example, this past year UPenn’s LLM program had a 10% acceptance rate, with students coming from 30+ countries (and applying from 70+). The one I know in last year’s cohort came first in his year at Oxford, then worked for 2 years at a “Magic. Circle” law firm (publishing 6 articles in that time), before going to UPenn for the LLM.

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Almost any educated person in the former Soviet Union will speak & read English very well. And they will do so with a high degree of proficiency.

Interesting advice from @collegemom3717 regarding one year LLM degree programs at US law schools.

Outside of LLMs in Taxation, my knowledge is fairly limited.

Graduates of foreign law schools pursuing an LLM degree in Comparative Law in the US in order to qualify for a handful of state bar exams (New York, California & Washington state are the main ones) often have a career plan in place prior to entering the LLM program. Of course, many do not. Significant difference in LLM students educated in England versus those who graduated from Chinese law schools.

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Note that in Estonia, Russian is the language of the not so well loved occupiers. There is tension between Russian speakers and indigenous peoples language speakers in all Baltic states. Don’t count on Russian helping you integrate. Among young people, English might actually help more, but in the end, if you want to make your home there, you will need Estonian.

Unlike Latvian and Lithuanian, Estonian is not an indoeuropean, but a finno-ugric language, close to Finnish, related to Hungarian, related to nothing you have learned previously.

Are you an excellent language learner? Some people are. But if you are not, I’d look critically at your choice of country. Being a good Russian speaker, Polish, Czech or Slovak would come much more easily. For an English speaker, any Scandinavian country (not Finland!) and the Netherlands might work well. Please don’t underestimate the linguistic difficulties of permanent immigration, just because a country’s universities offer degrees in English.

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I have anecdotal evidence of two people who tried the LLM at a top law school, then work in the US route. It’s super hard. One gave up and went back to his home country. Turns out it was easier for his American wife to find a job with an international organisation in Europe. Another, as far as I know, is still looking. These are supremely qualified people, with excellent English. It’s just a very low odds route.

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How about you try and participate in a high school year abroad after graduation? There isn’t too much demand for Easter Europe v. Other destinations and you wouldn’t jeopardize your freshman status while learning to adapt to a new culture& language and figuring out whether you want to stay. It’ll make the transition to university smoother if you stay and if things don’t work you haven’t lost anything (and can still return for study abroad).

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Thanks everyone for your advice!

Re: Russian, I’ve read that English is more commonly spoken as a second language among younger people, while Russian is more common among older people (as some of you also mention). That’s why I brought it up - my hope would be that I could communicate at least somewhat with both the elderly and the young even before my Estonian skills are up to par.

Having a less campus-centric experience, as @collegemom3717 brings up, is fine by me. I’ve never felt strongly about living on campus versus off campus at any school. I saw that TalTech, in particular, has an international student support club which supposedly pairs international students with willing “buddies” for their first semester to provide initial assistance/support. Beyond that support, I do believe that I can reach out and build my own social life as necessary. I also think I would prefer a major end-of-term assessment to a lot of graded homework and quizzes. I’m a good test taker, and that structure has always seemed so much simpler to me, anyways.

As to @Tigerle 's points, I definitely know that I will need to learn Estonian once I’m there. I’m a fast learner in general, and learning languages does come fairly easily to me. I found a free website to learn on called “Keeleklikk,” which appears to teach Estonian up to approximately A2 proficiency. I can start using that and other resources over the summer to see how the process goes. If it seems far too difficult and I’m not making progress, I’ll shift my focus to other countries and universities, like those you mention. If I do make progress and complete that course, I can then look into further learning opportunities to continue learning the language at higher levels to benefit me socially and in my studies, if I do end up going to Estonia for college.

@MYOS1634, you’re suggesting a gap year that I spend abroad? That actually might work really well for me, especially since I’m a bit young for my grade (I’ll graduate at 17 and turn 18 in September), so I would still be in the normal age range - albeit the older side of that range - when going to university a year late. I don’t think my parents are big fans of gap years in general, but in this scenario they might be receptive to the idea as a way to safely determine my future goals. I don’t know if you (or anyone else) have any personal experience with study abroad, but do you know what people do while away? Is it purely a cultural immersion thing, or are there other opportunities?

As context for the above questions, I’m the kind of person who gets bored after two weeks of summer break, which is to say that I need to keep myself busy. Having a few weeks to explore a new place would be awesome, but it’s hard for me to fathom doing nothing but exploring for a whole year. Perhaps I could find some kind of intensive language study program (i.e. with classes in Estonian each day) - and that would help resolve some language concerns, too. Alternatively, I guess I could look for an internship or other entry-level job there to give me a schedule for that year, but I suspect the language barrier would give me significant issues in that search.

I’ll definitely look more into different programs for a “test” year abroad after graduation - thanks for the idea!

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I understand that the gap year @MYOS1634 suggested was specifically a gap year as a high school student. You would stop with a host family and attend the classes that high school seniors attend in that country. Whether this is mostly about language immersion or learning actual content depends largely on how much you understand in the language of instruction going in. A lot of European countries have specific college prep programs, the senior year of which would be the equivalent of AP classes or IB classes. You’d be hard pressed to find a high school that teaches Estonian, though. Maybe Finnish, in Swedish high schools in the Eastern part of the country.
If you’re so set on Estonia, you might look for exchange programs with Estonian high schools, or Finnish high schools at a pinch.
There is a book “The smartest kids in the world” by Amanda Ripley looking at high performing school systems, notably Poland, Finland and South Korea through the eyes of American exchange students, two of them in their senior year. The student in Finland was rather unhappy and isolated but it appears to have been a personality thing rather than anything inherently unhappy making about Finland being unable to learn the language well enough to make friends appears to have been part of the problem, though it’s not explicitly spelled out in the book. All in all an interesting read for you, I think.

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Sorry, that second to last sentence is almost unintelligible. (being unable to learn the language well enough to make friends appears to have been part of the problem, though it’s not explicitly spelled out in the book) was supposed to be in parentheses.