Low GPA at top school or high GPA at lower-ranked college?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>I'm currently a junior in high school and attempting to figure out the ideal path to becoming a patent lawyer. I attend a pretty competitive high school and I'm in the top 3-4% in my class of about 400. My SAT scores are solid (2260: 800 M, 690 CR, 770 W), and my extracurriculars are excellent. My prospective major is chemical engineering, and I'm considering schools such as Cornell, UC Berkeley, Columbia, Northwestern, Carnegie Mellon, UVA, and Michigan. Ultimately, however, I have my sights set on law school, and I'm really hoping to at least have a shot at a T14.</p>

<p>I recently spoke to a practicing patent attorney at a renowned Denver law firm who told me that if I want to make it into a T14, I should not even be considering majoring in chemE at any one of the aforementioned universities. He said I should either a.) attend a good undergraduate school with a decent/good chemE program (i.e. Texas, Lehigh, Syracuse, Pitt) or b.) attend a T30 LAC with a 3-2 program and near-guaranteed transfer to a well-renowned institution (i.e. Wesleyan's program with Columbia and Caltech). </p>

<p>Using his own personal experience as support (he graduated from Pitt engineering and was accepted to Duke Law), he said that the value that law schools place on where applicants attended undergraduate is astoundingly incidental, especially in comparison with the weight they give to GPA. Although I may be able to squeeze out a 3.5 GPA at Cornell engineering with a lot of hard work (I think the average GPA for chemE majors is around 3.3), it won't make up for the fact that I could have gotten a 3.9 or 4.0 at a college such as Lehigh. </p>

<p>As of now, my top choices for law school would be NYU, Columbia, UC Berkeley, UChicago, and Northwestern, all of which have 25% GPAs >3.5. If I could manage an LSAT score in the low- mid-170s, would I have a chance at any of these schools with an undergraduate chemE degree from Cornell and a GPA around or just under 3.5? Or would I be better off with a higher GPA at school with a poorer, but still decent reputation? Or would my best bet be to try out a 3-2 program, where I might be able to obtain a relatively high GPA for three years at a LAC and decent GPA at a T15 university for two years?</p>

<p>I thoroughly appreciate any feedback.</p>

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<p>Well, that’s really up to how confident you are in your plans for the future. It certainly makes sense to go to a weaker college to avoid competition and a tougher program for a high gpa if you know for a fact you are going to apply to law school. Undergrad does not matter, while GPA and LSATs are the two biggies. I had the same thoughts as you. I was tempted to go to UC Davis over Berkeley in order to reduce competition, but I figured if I decided against law school that it is much more important to have a good undergraduate school name on my resume than a high gpa. I chose Berkeley for better employment options should I choose to not attend or postpone law school. I figured if I really do want to go to a top law school I shouldn’t shy away from competition or a tougher program in undergrad just to increase my chances of getting into a super competitive law school. I kept a pretty decent GPA at Berkeley, probably could have been higher elsewhere, but it’ll probably be better for me to drop just a few schools back in law school rankings where I can compete better than a top 5 school where I might get creamed because I was only there cause I chose the easiest path to get there. My confidence going into law school, assuming I get into one of my target schools, will be much higher knowing I got in through tough competition at a good school in order to get into a good school, rather than being one of the students who chose a state college because they knew they could cruise.</p>

<p>Of course chemical engineering is a really difficult major to maintain GPA. 3.5 would put you into a bit of hole that you would need a great LSAT score to get you out. Tough choice. I say go to a mediocre public school, save money, and build up a great gpa only if you are absolutely set on law school.</p>

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<p>high GPA > low GPA.</p>

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<p>As corny as it may sound, I’d say go wherever you’d think you’d be happiest. You might want to go to law school now, but things may change. The top schools you mentioned first seem like great options and if you get accepted, you should definitely choose one of those. Think about it this way: you’ll spend 4-5 years at whichever college you choose; do you really want it to be a place that you might end up resenting simply because you thought it would be an easier school? If you think you’d really enjoy Chem E, go to whichever school has the best Chem E department. But like Dem Bones said, if you know for sure you’re going to law school, it would be best knowing you didn’t have to struggle to maintain a 3.5 in undergrad.</p>

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<p>Please read the thread, “Everything you want to know about law school admssion.” Pay particular attentin to question 3 in post one of that thread.It will answer your questions.</p>

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<p>No matter how sure you think you are about going into patent law, the odds that you will actually end up doing this are slim. Even if you DO end up doing patent law, there’s probably no other field within law in which where you went to law school is as unimportant as it is in patent law. See the “sticky” thread at the top of this board. </p>

<p>Moreover, life is more than that old board game Life where you go around the board and pick up a degree. Don’t choose a college based solely on where you think you’d end up with the highest gpa. LOTS of factors go into gpa anyway and anyone who thinks they can predict the sort of gpa you’ll get in college based on the selectivity of the college is just plain wrong. </p>

<p>College is four years of your life–a very important 4 years. It’s about a lot more than your gpa. Choose the college where you think you’ll be happiest IF you get in. That may be partly based on how much stress you think you’d be under academically–but that isn’t the only factor.</p>

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<p>High gpa > Low gpa is correct, however, law schools do know a lot about the reputation of undergrad.
a 3.7 at harvard, for example, would be looked at more favorably than a 3.9 at a regional college.</p>

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<p>oh god PLEASE do not choose your undergrad school based on where you think you might want to grad school. Just don’t. </p>

<ol>
<li> There aren’t many Lehigh/Syracuse kids at T14 law schools, proportionally. How many of them do you think had 3.9-4.0s undergrad? Most of them.</li>
</ol>

<p>There are a TON of HYPS kids at T14 law schools. How many of them do you think had 3.9-4.0s undergrad? Definitely not the majority. I know a lot of Yale kids who got into HLS with a 3.7, which would not happen if you went to Syracuse. </p>

<p>Just go where you’ll be happiest. If that’s a less competitive school, great. But if you choose an “easier” school because you want to inflate your GPA by refusing to challenge yourself, you’re making a huge mistake.</p>

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<p>what mochamaven examplified what i stated well, but then yea, if you refuse to challenge yourself in undergrad years, what makes you think that you will want to for law school?</p>

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<p>Mochamaven notes, "1. There aren’t many Lehigh/Syracuse kids at T14 law schools, proportionally. How many of them do you think had 3.9-4.0s undergrad? Most of them.</p>

<p>There are a TON of HYPS kids at T14 law schools. How many of them do you think had 3.9-4.0s undergrad? Definitely not the majority. I know a lot of Yale kids who got into HLS with a 3.7, which would not happen if you went to Syracuse"</p>

<p>Response: This is a faulty assumption and faulty causation fallacy all rolled into one post.
Yes, there are a ton of HYPS at top law schools but NOT necessarily because they attended a well known undergraduate program. They probably got very high LSAT,which does have some correlation with the SAT.</p>

<p>Every law school admission officer that I have met noted that the key is GPA and LSAT and personal statement. The undergraduate school only matters if there is significant grade inflation or deflation, which only some schools subscribe to. The cache of the school does not get factored into the formula. Thus , a 3.8 from Podunk U will find it easier to get into a top law school over a 3.6 from HYPS assuming the same LSAT and same quality personal statement.</p>

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<p>Quite seriously, taxguy, could you give us some idea of the law schools the admissions officers you’ve spoken with work for? </p>

<p>If you don’t feel comfortable doing that, can you share whether any fall in the top 6 (Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Columbia, NYU)?</p>

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<p>I think our posts are going in a circle. GPA, LSAT, and personal statement are the three most important criterias. However, if there are two applicants with the same scores but from different colleges, the one who graduated from higher-ranked college will have a slight upperhand.</p>

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<p>I obviously didn’t speak with all or even most admission officers. I spoke with the head of admission for University of Florida, Stetson, University of Baltimore and an admission person at University of Maryland. I also spoke with someone years ago at Cornell.</p>

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<p>To the OP: Take a step back and look at what you are doing. Are you seriously considering not going to higher ranked schools because they might be “too hard”? Do you realize how absurd this is? If you are at the top of your class and scored a 2260 on the SAT, chances are that you will be competitive at even the most elite schools…if you clearly could not handle the academics you would not be offered admission.</p>

<p>Think about it this way. In 5 years, would you pass up a T14 law school to go to a lower ranked one because you are afraid that you might not make their law review? Hopefully you see the folly in THAT. It’s time to stop letting fear control you and step up. There is a reason why you have done well so far in high school and that won’t go away simply because you move on to a “prestigious” college.</p>

<p>If you earn the opportunity to go to a great school and pass it up because you are scared (as opposed to a reason you can’t control such as bad fit, high tuition, etc.), then you don’t belong there in the first place.</p>

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<p>I’m rather interested in this topic, so I’ll give it a bump, but I also want to share my opinion, which differs greatly from those of you that think he/she should go to the best school he/she can get into.</p>

<p>I am giving this point of view as a rising senior in high school with similar stats as the OP. I have recently been researching what I want to do with my future and have also been looking into patent law.</p>

<p>There are not many threads on this forum pertaining to patent law but for the ones that do, most of the people say that high school students are too young to know if they are going to want to go into law school in four years. I totally agree. I don’t know if I will want to peruse something different. I don’t even know if I totally want to go into engineering. I really enjoyed math and science courses in high school but is engineering for me? But that is beside the point.</p>

<p>I think the beauty of college is having options. You can sculpt your future and explore many different aspects of different majors. If the OP was completely sure that he/she wanted to go into a career in engineering, then it would be smart to suggest 100%, go to the best school that you can get into for engineering. This is not the case though. The OP is potentially considering going into law, particularly intellectual property. He/she may not want to go into law after four years of undergraduate school, but I think that the key word in all of this is options. The OP wants the option of going to law school after he/she graduates. </p>

<p>If the OP were to go to a lower ranked engineering school, he/she would be able to maintain a high GPA and will have the option of going to law school if he/she wants. I personally think going to a high ranked engineering program would be a mistake if you are unsure about what you want to peruse (whether it be patent law or engineering or something totally different). Those programs are tough and your GPA may take a hit, no matter how smart you are. The door for going to a T14 law school may close and you may not have that option anymore. </p>

<p>Of course people are going to say that you aren’t challenging yourself by going to a lower ranked school, and that may be true, but if you are seriously considering law school it may be the right choice. It is also good if you do decide to stick with engineering for a career, since you can always try to transfer to a better school, or simply go to graduate school at a top ranked university. Also, with your grades, I’m sure you would get a lot of money for your education at a lower ranked school, which could be a major plus since law school is not exactly what one would call cheap.</p>

<p>Well, that’s my input. I am in the same boat as you so I would also like to hear what other people say.</p>

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<p>I know this may not be helpful, but it’s probably best to attend a top college and get top grades there. I also attended a top private HS, but did even better in college. I never expected to attain a 3.8 GPA at the ivy I presently attend, but I have done just that. Also, hoping to get into law school, but that LSAT is a killer of a test.</p>

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<p>Congrats on the high marks! May I ask what you majored in?</p>

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<p>Taxguy, I think the OP is referring to T14 law schools, which do admissions somewhat differently from the schools of the admissions officers you’ve talked to. For almost all law schools, it’s purely a numbers game. But at a place like Yale or Stanford, they tend to take “soft” factors into account, which really throws your theory off.</p>

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I think most people would argue high gpa because most people never attended a top university. I graduated from UCLA where the average graduating GPA is a 2.3. The environment at top universities is highly competitive and the professors force you to compete with your peers for a good grade. Out of a class of about 100, the professor will give 5 A, 20 B, 50 C, 20 D, 5 F. I can say from my experience it is difficult to get an A at UCLA even if you try your hardest you will get a C. Compare that to Joe Shmoe college where an A is handed out like candy. Come on now.

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Dave: this is a 6 year old thread.