<p>In the "Son Dismissed from Guilford" thread, a poster raised the issue of graduation rates.</p>
<p>I did some investigating of this topic (by visiting <a href="http://www.collegeresults.org)%5B/url%5D">www.collegeresults.org)</a>, and learned that highly selective schools generally have high graduation rates (ex - MIT - 94%, Princeton - 97%) whereas less selective schools have rates which are notably lower (ex - UMass - 68%, Guilford - 59%).</p>
<p>Is this to be explained by the fact that selective colleges pick the best students who of course are the most likely to succeed? Or are other factors at work here?</p>
<p>I am just surprised that the graduation rates at some of these other good schools are so low.</p>
<p>This is one of those statistics that USNWR uses in its "rankings" that does merit close attention. Of course a low graduation rate might mean that many students transfer and graduate from another institution, but it is still a troubling indicator.</p>
<p>It's important to put graduation rates in context --- UMass's graduation rate, for instance, is actually on the high side for public institutions (I believe the six year grad rate for public institutions is somewhere around 30%). By the same token, the graduation rate for all 4-year schools hovers around 50%.</p>
<p>Obviously, the most selective colleges are able to attract better qualified students and that does play into higher graduation rates to a certain extent. Many believe that SAT scores are the best indicator of future college success, so colleges with higher SAT score ranges are more likely to have more academically qualified students, which is one of the reasons I like the College Results database as it lets you compare peer groups, i.e. schools with similar medians.</p>
<p>However, other factors also come into play. Some schools - and not just the most selective schools - do a better job at providing advising and student support services that keep students in school. Financial issues also come into play. Colleges with a greater percentage of students from higher income families undoubtably tend to have higher graduation rates (this is one reason that public institutions tend to have low graduation rates.) By the same token, schools that provide strong financial aid to all students who need it are likely to end up with stronger graduation rates. There are also cultural and geographic factors involved --- in certain parts of the country, there's stronger emphasis on getting that college degree than in others --- and institutions that serve high percentages of minority students often (but not always) have lower graduation rates.</p>
<p>At less competitive colleges, there appears to be a greater percentage of less-motivated students or possibly a greater standard deviation in ability. Since faculty members typically come from better colleges than where they teach (at least, on average) the professors have a sense of what a student at a more challenging college should reasonably know of a subject, and will fail students who have not mastered enough of the subject.</p>
<p>I was an undergrad in engineering at the University of Florida, and a significant percentage of students there FLUNKED or dropped just after the mid-terms (and had to repeat, possibly more than once) the entry-level engineering courses such as statics, dynamics, thermodynamics, electrical systems, etc. At MIT (where I was a grad student and also an RA in an undergrad dorm) I am not sure if it is because more of the students were motivated or because the professors assumed the students had already been weeded out, but very, very few students who did all of the homework and attended all of the lectures and tried reasonably hard flunked any course. At the state university, I definitely encountered students who attended every lecture, tried to do the homework, and tried to keep up but still FLUNKED a course. </p>
<p>It may also be partially due to grade inflation at the lower end at better schools. I definitely encountered students at MIT who received a C in a course without really having much of a clue as to what was going on (they came to me at the last minute for tutoring help).</p>
<p>I think that one factor is graduation requirements. WIth most schools having a 120 credit minimum and a multitude of specific categories of classes to take, it is hard at some institutions to graduate in 4 years (e.g. the classes needed to fulfill the reqirements are not available because they are filled). </p>
<p>Another factor may be AP. Most students at top schools drop the 120 credit graduation requirement from the day of entry due to AP credits. You need to take 5 3-credit courses per semester to graduate in 4 years at most schools if you don't have AP credits. Yet another factor is that students at top schools do things in the summer to gain credits, where other students take the time off or work.</p>
<p>kono -- the web site I referenced shows graduation rates six years after initial matriculation, so that should cover most students who delay graduation because of required course scheduling.</p>
<p>When I see private colleges with graduation rates below 70%, I begin to wonder about peer influence.</p>
<p>A school with a high graduation rate obviously has students who do the work they need to do, while those with low graduation rates most likely have a higher percentage of students who party their way out of the institution.</p>
<p>I'd rather have my child at a place where the norm is that students take their work, and the need to graduate, seriously.</p>
<p>Many more kids at state schools work their way through school paying most of the costs themselves. That often requires a lighter load to make ends meet.</p>
<p>"Is this to be explained by the fact that selective colleges pick the best students who of course are the most likely to succeed? Or are other factors at work here?"</p>
<p>Occam's razor would suggest that, relative to the capacity of the students attending, the workload is easier, the advising better, the coddling more intense. And, relative to the students attending, I'd be willing to bet that's true. (Just think what it would do the rankings if they weren't coddled, and the dropout rate went up!)</p>
<p>But, within classes of similar schools, you'll find pretty much a straight-line association between grad. rates and number of low-income students - not number of students receiving financial aid, but those within the bottom two quintiles ($40k and below), or those just above. </p>
<p>The reasons are pretty transparent: even when the student can afford to enter, his/her family may be one accident, illness, etc. away from falling off the track, and the student may be needed at home, siblings may need to be cared for, what little income support that was received dries up, etc.</p>
<p>I think lower grad rates are multi causal
we didn't consider overall grad rates as much as we considered what does MY student need to succeed and finish.
From reading posts on this site and articles, some schools seem to weed out at entrance, but once student is admitted, do a great deal to insure graduation, giving great financial aid, having a good selection of needed classes, and perhaps even winking at grade inflation.
Other schools are not as competitve at admision, giving students a chance to prove themselves in college, even if they weren't ready for the opportunity in high school to excel at AP and other challenging courses. Some schools may not have as deep of pockets, forcing students to take time out to work either during their studies or by taking a sabbatical. Students at these less competitive schools, may decide to transfer upon returning to their studies or forgo completing their degree altogether, which seems to be what some are concerned about.
My D school, while not as competitive for admission as some comparable schools also has a lower graduation rate than those schools. Yet it is considered to be one of the top academic programs in the country for intellectual prowess.
We were slightly concerned about the demands of the school, but we assessed the supports that might be needed and decided they would be enough.
Living conditions were good- fairly easy to get housing-while some do better in a rural area with few distractions, my D prefered by far to live in a city.
Good financial aid- 100% of EFC met, good opportunity on campus to find interesting well paying work as well.
Supportive atmosphere, tutors available, and profs easily accessible, lack of focus on grades.
The few people D has known that have transfered out, did so because either they or their families decided that it was too expensive ( they were full pay and after deciding on med or law school, realized that they wanted to pace themselves financially rather than spend it all on undergrad)or that it was too small, while most everyone seems to get the classes they need- the size of the school precludes a wide course selection.</p>
<p>I think it works best if students determine what criteria they need to be succesful and look for a school that has that, rather than using grad rate as a cut off. Sure a very low grad rate should alert you to investigating what supports that school has for students, but a high grad rate doesn't always mean a superior school for you.</p>
<p>One of the dumbest remarks is to claim that elite schools have high graduation rates because their curriculum is easier. The stupidity of that remark is best shown by the results on the graduate record exam or MCATs. All school keep record of how their graduates applying to med. schoole do on the MCATs and the elite school data that I have seen shows a mean score well above (20%) above the national average. In sum, better raw material plus the resources to provide a fine educational experience equals graduation near or on time.</p>
<p>Emerald, Excellent post, pointing out many factors to consider. I think you are right on target: while it's important to take the overall graduation rate into account, individual students also need to consider the factors that will contribute to their specific needs and ability to graduate.</p>