<p>Again, "Many students do want to pursue technical education but the cc's are over-crowded and they can't afford to go elsewhere. "</p>
<p>What the dept of ed proposes and what MtA currently requires are different. Most likely what actually becomes law will be vastly different than what is proposed, if anything at all passes. </p>
<p>"Virtually all jobs that would allow a person to be self supporting now require some kind of post secondary school training or education. Many students and their parents don't realize that." Northstarmom</p>
<p>In this area that isn't exactly true which is a part of the problem. There are a lot of very independant people who have no formalized training or education. The training was done on the job (get hired, get trained, work, retire) or you grew up learning it. That lifestyle is changing but there is still a need for farmers & fishermen, the person who chops the many cords firewood and the one who empties the septic tanks. It is true that the parents are slow to understand that their kids don't have the same job options they had and that for many (but not all) post HS training is crucial to getting a self-supporting income. They absolutely need encouragement and support in finding their path but I don't see that need being met by having to fill out a college application.</p>
<p>I know these kids, I know their parents and some of their extended families. The mandatory college app is not an appropriate requirement. A more flexible requirement (as proposed by the dept of ed) may be much more acceptable. The important thing to acknowledge and respect is that not everyone should be forced to fill out a college application. The time would probably be better spent explaining revolving credit.</p>
<p>re: the tourist industry jobs</p>
<p>Many of those low level hospitality jobs are held by non-citizen guest workers.</p>
<p>The big problem is Maine is always coming up with great ideas but there is no money to actually make them work. This is already one of the highest taxed states. The voters vote down spending bills for the university system. Those taxes keep businesses from relocating here. It's a very complicated situation here but refusing to let a kid march at graduation because they didn't fill out a college app won't change anything (referring specifically to my Mt Ararat).</p>
<p>'That lifestyle is changing but there is still a need for farmers & fishermen, the person who chops the many cords firewood and the one who empties the septic tanks.''</p>
<p>Are many of those jobs being eliminated by automation? Do jobs like being farmers require more education than they did in the past? I know that in many areas of the U.S. family farms are being overtaken by farms operated by large corportations. I also seem to have read that being successful farmers now requires more knowledge of science and agriculture than was true in the past.</p>
<p>Even if the farming, wood chopping, fishing, septic tank cleaning jobs still exist, are there enough of those jobs for the many Maine high school graduates who are produced and who have no plans to go to college, and can they support themselves on those jobs?</p>
<p>Is it possible that to get vocational skills and employment, many students in that state will need to leave the state, which could mean applying to out of state training programs?</p>
<p>I don't know that much about Maine's economy, so would be interested in hearing more information about it.</p>
<p>I also would like to emphasize that the legislation under consideration isn't for a mandatory college applications, which I agree would be very inappropriate for many students, but for mandatory college, vocational or military applications.</p>
<p>this is a terrible idea! if maine starts this then soon, all other states may require students to apply to colleges, and then wut? HS degree is worthless! And so will the BA (since everyone else has it). What does it do? Make it harder for anyone to get a decent job after college.</p>
<p>Northstarmom: I just don't agree that jobs are being eliminated by automation. For example, in our area even though we have highly automated garbage trucks, the trash is still sorted by hand at the recycling center. Of course, we still need garbage truck drivers as well. There is a huge demand for store clerks and waiters. None of these jobs require post secondary training. I am also dismayed that many jobs now require a college degree when it really isn't necessary. It's not clear to me that a car salesman needs a college degree, yet I find mechanical engineering majors selling cars. I also found out recently that the woman behind the counter at the rental car agency had a degree in communications. Is it really necessary to spend $100,000 to work behind the counter renting cars? An average high school graduate should be able to write, communicate and do enough math to hold a job like that. If that is not the case, then our high schools are broken, and we need to fix them before forcing kids into expensive post secondary training. Companies have upped the bar for employment because so many people are now getting college degrees. The problem is that the jobs aren't getting any better, but the cost of education is getting higher.</p>
<p>I also speak from personal experience because I have a child with learning disabilities who gave up in high school and needs a year off before he even considers what he wants to do with the rest of his life. All the counseling in the world (we even have transistion specialists) wouldn't get him to think about it this year. He couldn't think beyond high school. We weren't even sure he was going to graduate until the last final exam was over. If they had given him one more hoop to jump through I don't think he would have made it. I recognize that he can't support himself with a minimum wage job, but it's still better than no job at all, and may give him enough self-confidence to go into some kind of training later. Also, I would rather see him go into an apprenticeship than go to trade school. He needs to be out of the school environment.</p>
<p>"Who is going to do the low wage jobs if everyone in the US goes to college or trade school?"</p>
<p>More college graduates = more highly-educated people improving technology = technology takes the place of low-wage workers = less low wage workers = more college / vocational school graduates .. and the cycle continues</p>
<p>um...that cycle is wrong. There will always be people working in mcdonalds. Next thing you know, with a BA in econ, the next thing you could possibly do is be a cashier at mcdonalds!</p>
<p>"I just don't agree that jobs are being eliminated by automation. For example, in our area even though we have highly automated garbage trucks, the trash is still sorted by hand at the recycling center. Of course, we still need garbage truck drivers as well. There is a huge demand for store clerks and waiters. None of these jobs require post secondary training."</p>
<p>In many places, people who are store clerks and work waiter jobs do not make enough to support themselves, and also get no benefits including health insurance.</p>
<p>"Job losses are mounting in communities where low-skill employment has dominated the economy. Nationally, the number of jobs lost due to displacement has increased significantly since the late 1990s. From 1997 to 1999, 3.3 million workers lost jobs, but from 2001 to 2003 the number had increased to 5.3 million. Over the entire six year period more than 9.3 million workers were displaced. The rate of displacement–that is, the share of displaced workers relative to the workforce as a whole–went from 2.4 percent in the 1997 to 1999 period to 4.0 percent in the 2001 to 2003 period. It increased across all categories–gender, race, age, education, and household type. One-third of all jobs lost due to displacement in the 2001 to 2003 period were in manufacturing. Forty-two percent were held by people with a high school education or less....</p>
<p>"As in urban parts of the country, low-skill workers in rural America are the most vulnerable to displacement caused by increases in productivity and international competition. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Economic Research Service (ERS) just slightly less than half (42 percent) of rural jobs are low-skill: that is, they are less complex and require less formal education Though the share of rural jobs that are low-skill is declining, the proportion remains higher than in urban areas, as it has been historically.</p>
<p>From 1997 to 1999, 637,000 rural workers were displaced. In the 2001 to 2003 period the number increased to 800,000. Over the six-year period 1.5 million rural workers lost their jobs. Less educated rural workers were more likely to be displaced; workers with a college degree lost their jobs at half the rate of those with only a high school education. These two facts vary by region...."</p>
<p>"In the coming years, a large number of first-level jobs in service industries related to customer service, help desk and directory assistance will be lost due to the advent of intelligent systems, research firm Strategy Analytics said in the report.</p>
<p>lol, i think its funny that you are posting information about smart systems? how long ago did we know about hybrid technology? like 15 or more years, and now they are BARELY starting to be used.</p>
<p>"For many Americans, the word “outsourcing” conjures up images of manufacturing job decline. But the United States is far from alone in losing manufacturing employment, points out Dan Miklovic, vice president and research director at GartnerG2, the business research arm of Stamford, Conn.-based Gartner Inc. “Recent studies show that manufacturing jobs are declining everywhere,” said Miklovic, during a Nov. 17 panel discussion on outsourcing, part of a Global Media Summit sponsored by Rockwell Automation, Milwaukee. </p>
<p>Over the past decade, U.S. manufacturing jobs have declined by more than 11 percent, Miklovic noted. But at the same time, Japan’s manufacturing employment base has dropped by 16 percent, while the number of manufacturing jobs in countries including Brazil have declined by some 20 percent, he pointed out. “And one of the largest losers of manufacturing jobs has been China,” Miklovic added. “We like to pick on China and say that all of these jobs are going to China, but they’re losing jobs in manufacturing as well.”</p>
<p>The reason for the job losses? Miklovic summed it up in one word: automation. Through automation, he said, “we are really doing a good job of improving the productivity of people.”</p>
<p>Miklovic reminded media attendees at the panel session that 25 percent to 30 percent of the U.S. population was at one time involved in agricultural jobs. But today, only 3 percent of Americans work in agriculture, yet they have turned the United States into a net agricultural exporter, he noted. “The same thing is now happening in manufacturing,” Miklovic said. “Through automation, through improved productivity, we’re driving the number of jobs down on a global basis.”</p>
<p>being required to fill-out an application but not submit it is absolutely pointless...</p>
<p>and why make people go through the trouble of applying if they have no plans to attend? it just makes it harder for the people who actually want to go.</p>
<p>Thank you, Northstarmom, for publishing relevant posts that show the larger problem of rural unemployment relative to educational levels. It's myopic for capable h.s. students to worry they might waste an afternoon on a form never filed. Can't anybody imagine anyone ELSE's circumstances here? If the program doesn't hurt you but might help other students, it seems worth supporting. </p>
<p>The problem I can't solve in my mind is the crowded CC's that mominme refers to, and the lack of public support (voting in the school funding) for higher education. That's real, and I'm thinking about it without success. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, the current generation of rural h.s. students deserves a shot at something beyond a min-wage permanent future, still squeezing ketchup when they're 40 with a family. That could mean college, military, or vocational trades, but somebody should be making sure they all try for something north of Denny's for their future. </p>
<p>Public h.s. education is about making literate citizens, capable of work to support themselves independently. The school's job isn't finished until they help students do better than a future like journalist Barbara Ehrenreich described in "Nickel and Dimed" when she went in disguise for a year doing min-wage jobs, quickly ended up homeless for nonpayment of rent even while working, then wrote about it (excellent read).</p>
<p>And so will the BA (since everyone else has it). What does it do? Make it harder for anyone to get a decent job after college.</p>
<p>Jesus, did you complain this much when high school became a requirement? </p>
<p>"But grade school degrees would be useless!"</p>
<p>Nevermind that a population with more higher education is far more economically sound and efficient than keeping the supply of college education down.</p>
<p>The idea of this program is not to get every student to go to college. It's merely to close the gap between HS graduation and college attendance rates, by getting capable students--many of them rural and 1st-gen college attenders--to consider an opportunity that just isn't part of their family or community culture. To put it baldly--it's aimed at the kids who would probably take for granted that they'd go to collge if they grew up in the midwest, where college attendance rates are higher.</p>
<p>It's hard to think of any program that's so simple, inexpensive, and if the Poland HS pilot program is any indication, effective, at addressing some of the economic issues faced by Maine. Another problem that hasn't been mentioned is that students from Maine who DO attend college are more likely to leave the state than is typical elsewhere. There are incentive programs under consideration to address that point in the pipeline as well.</p>
<p>Ray192: I wouldn't mind more education for everyone, but I'm not inclined to want to pay $100,000 for it if I can't make a return on my investment. It all depends upon if there are enough high-paying jobs out there for every educated person. Of course, if one LIKES going to school that's different, but not everyone does. Some people learn better on the job, and some people just don't care about English literature and algebra and putting them in the required classes at StateU does not necessarily have the idyllic outcome (educated populace) you envision. It's amazing how a person can get through classes without learning anything.</p>
<p>Northstarmom: I agree that many jobs for high school graduates don't pay well enough for someone to support himself (I, too, have read Erlichman's book mentioned by another poster). However, what I find particularly discomforting when looking at careers for my son is that many of the jobs requiring a college degree ALSO don't pay well. Why should I spend the money for college when it merely means my son can now be a personal trainer making $23,000/year instead of a stock clerk at Target making $19,000/year (as quoted from "Best Jobs for the 21st Century"). It takes a long time to make up $100,000 at $4000/year, not to mention the fact that it will be 4 to 6 years of torture and lost wages for my son given his learning disabilities. I am concerned about the number of low-paying jobs now requiring a college degree. The bar has been raised for entry with no corresponding rise in wages.</p>
<p>ricegal, I so agree with your thoughts about excercise trainer, vs. Target clerk. I have a friend whose D is going to major in excercise science. Her mother does not care b/c she said that in her opinion you can do little with an undergraduate degree anyway. Her D plans to head straight to graduate school after her undergrad years. D is just looking to have a high gpa for grad school.</p>
<p>I don't understand the doomsday posts about this requirement. At worst, this ends up being just another graduation requirement to fulfill, like Geometry, and certainly no more arduous than any of the other requirements. At best, it would help some kids--and I recognize maybe only a few, but some is some--expand their horizons and put themselves in a better position for the future. As others have said, this doesn't mean that everyone has to apply to Harvard or everyone has to apply to college period. It just means that everyone has to fill out a (probably fairly simple) form, and whether or not it applies to them and their town's economy, I don't see how it hurts anybody.</p>
<p>I attended seniors awards and sports awards the last two nights at MtA. There are some very impressive soon to be graduates coming out of the high school. A few stats for you: class of 2006--233 graduates. Approx 73% reported post-secondary plans. They were: 4 yr college 55%, 2 yr college 9%, deferred admission 1%, certificate program 3%, military 4%, and other 1% ( I think the other represents the kids joining the jr hockey league). Mt Ararat High School is part of the 7th largest school district in Maine. According to an article in a local paper today Maine has the smallest community college system in the country. One, SMCC, turned away 450 technical science and 1100 health science applicants for fall 2006 due to lack of space.</p>
<p>So, back to my original point. Requiring a student to fill out a college application is not an appropriate requirement for graduation (this is an actual current requirement to march at graduation); properly filling out a college, military, job, etc application is appropriate and beneficial and reflects the potential needs of ALL students.</p>
<p>Fwiw, lobstering won't become automated. It is far more likely that global warming and/or other environmental issues may cause problems. There is an episode of "Dirty Jobs" on lobstering which shows just a bit of what's involved. Also, I found "Nickel & Dimed" to be a very superficial glimpse of the hourly workers life. The author achieved her pre-set goal while playing at the lifestyle. She never truly embraced it or truly tried to make it work. This is not to say that these people are not underpaid; they absolutely are. They are the middle class that is rapidly being squeezed into poverty as the rich get richer.</p>