Making the Wise Choice

College Majors Music Major
1

So we have all the information. This is another debt/return discussion, and I will apologize in advance for the length.

S has 4 choices on the table to study bass. Purchase, (in state public), Wm. Paterson, New School and NEC. He declined his spot/scholarship at Hartt a while ago, so they could make the offer to someone else before April 1. We aren’t factoring in Eastman, although he remains on the waitlist. (They are only taking 1 jazz bass this year, so the chances of getting off the list are slim.)

We discussed at the beginning of the process that if he got into any of the expensive schools without merit, that amounted to a rejection and would not be feasible financially. For a bit of background, we are poster children for the Great Recession; job loss followed by long term unemployment, savings wiped out to keep afloat and pay for a cross-country move for work, with a house we no longer lived in that wouldn’t sell in the housing crash and ended up foreclosed. We have landed on our feet, fortunately, but can’t afford to tap into what retirement we have managed to build back up, nor do we have home equity to tap as we have been renting since the foreclosure. We have a younger son graduating in '18.

We have been frugal, and did build up some savings over the past 5 years. Those savings, combined with current income/reduced spending makes us able to pay for Purchase or Wm. Paterson, (where he got the max talent scholarship, making it slightly less expensive than Purchase), for 4 years with minimal student loans, which we would help pay. Both schools are also within commuting distance should anything unforeseen change our circumstances, and both are an easy trip into NYC.

New School offered a 1/2 tuition scholarship. NEC less than that, but packaged in work study and additional Perkins loans. The direct costs minus aid for both come in at almost double that of Purchase/Paterson. He loves both schools. NEC would be his top choice if costs weren’t a factor, with New School being a close second. He would have to max out student loans, and we would have to take out PLUS loans to get him through the 4 years at either. We COULD. But don’t think maybe we should.

S has had lessons and visits with the teachers at Purchase and Paterson, and likes both very much. He is being incredibly mature and absolutely un-spoiled about the whole thing. I’m the one who is struggling with it. Would the higher level of playing, the rigor, the connections, the immersive experiences at NEC/NS make the risks acceptable? My head says no. My heart says what this kid has accomplished in the 2 1/2 years since he first touched a double bass is extraordinary and he should go wherever the opportunities are the greatest.

I spent half the day yesterday over on the Financial Aid/Scholarships forum, reading all the “you can’t afford this school” responses. I think I know what we have to do. But I thought I’d post this and maybe get some sympathy and/or reassurance. :slight_smile: And maybe make some folks going through the same thing feel not alone. Thanks.

2

Such a great post. We are a year behind you. Do you sense any measureable difference in the programs - would he be equal to the juniors at one place and the freshmen at the other. Does one of the profs seems to have 4+ years of things to say and the other only 1? I expressed my opinion to my S that regardless of where he goes, it is not to have musical sugar sprinkled on him - he will need to own his development to keep moving along so that the beginning and end of college is not a magical moment when something happens. I will post about one of S’ college visits later, but we could tell exactly where S was in their progression, and if S went there, he would have to add on some extra self-defined goals, but could still put the time to good use.

3

From what I know, William Patterson and the New School have good jazz programs (I am assuming this is jazz performance, not classical, given the New School admission). NEC and New School have well respected Jazz programs, and great teachers, but given your financial background I would say (and I am no expert on Jazz, so listen to what others say, too), that it isn’t worth going out on a limb for financially, given your circumstances, it makes no sense to load up on debt like that, especially with music. I know that William Patterson gets a lot of local jazz musicians teaching there, and Purchase has a good reputation, and to me it makes more sense to take the financially conservative route here. Among other things, if your son decides that Jazz bass is not for him, or if he decides to go on to grad school, then choosing this route will make either option a lot easier. This is not a knock on the New School or NEC or their programs, it is about , to quote the pencil pushers, ROI, and NEC and New School with their higher costs to me doesn’t have the ROI that the other two schools do, to use the analogy. Especially given that he is a relative newcomer to the instrument, to me taking the more affordable path allows him to grow, then he can move to the ‘big leagues’ at grad school level. The fact that he got into NEC and New School is impressive, and he has a lot of room to grow. Given that you live in the NYC region, that means he has access to NYC for gigs and such potentially so that works, too, not like he would be going to school in the middle of nowhere, so he would have some of the advantages of NEC or New School still, so not a bad deal IMO.

4

Thanks for your responses! It helps. Writing it all out helped, too. Logically, of course it doesn’t make sense to incur a lot of debt for an undergrad music major, but it is good to have someone say it in regards to our particular situation.

S definitely feels like he would have room to grow at either Purchase or Paterson, although his bass teacher feels he may be in a bigger fish/littler pond situation. Teacher thinks New School would be the best musical fit, but fully understands the financial constraints. S has great ears and improvisational ability, and a ton of raw talent, but still hasn’t fully learned his way around the bass. (Higher thumb position fluency, bowing techniques etc.) It is very possible or even probable that he would have a year or two of feeling like he was playing serious catch-up at a school like NEC or Eastman. He handles stress well, so that didn’t seem to bother him. It would me, but then again, I wouldn’t have had the guts to go for any of this the way he has.

It is important to S that he be able to continue some classical training at a fairly intense level as well. WP has a unique Jazz Studies with Emphasis in Classical Performance major, which essentially means a jazz major/classical minor program. In discussions at Purchase, it seems he could continue classical training more informally, as in “trading studios” for a semester, (with Tim Cobb!) if it works out and auditioning for some classical ensembles. All things to mull over in making his decision.

I’m feeling less sad and more clarity now. Thanks again for the thoughtful responses…

5

Hi, @indeestudios . Congratulations to you and your son on all of the acceptances! I think you already know that my son got into New School and is waitlisted at Purchase (maybe when all the dust settles they will find themselves playing music together!)–not nearly as many wonderful choices as you have, but I can really empathize with your trying to balance what would be best for your son against what you can really afford without seriously setting your family back.

I still don’t really know enough about the various programs–or what kind of environment would be best for my son in terms of learning music (he’s still so new to it)–to offer any kind of advice. Purchase is still a long-shot for us (although miracles do happen!), but I have been thinking about the benefits of both that and New School, just in case. One minute I’m thinking how fantastic it would be for my son to live and study jazz right in the Village (he was born at Beth Israel; the other day I told him he’d be going full-circle), and it does sound great to be able to choose and be mentored by working musicians there.

On the other hand, I have yet to hear anything but positive things about Purchase, and my son got a good feeling from the people at the audition. On a non-music-related level, I think that it might be nice for my son to be on more of a “real” campus; I get the impression that there’s a bit more of a community there. He doesn’t seem to care about that aspect of things much; he recently told me that he’s not really concerned about having fun at college–he just wants to be able to seriously study his music with as little distraction as possible and be the best he can be as a musician.

My own feeling in the end is that, unless my son has a real, burning desire/reason to go to one or the other, it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to spend over twice as much in tuition when both schools seem to be so well-regarded (and Purchase is so close to NYC anyway!). (This is, again, all theoretical, unless the waitlist gods are kind.) I kind of believe (and there may be others here who know a lot more about this stuff and disagree with me) that if someone has the innate talent and the focus and drive and sheer love of music, he or she will be fine pretty much anywhere. And, if not, there’s always the option of transferring down the road… :slight_smile:

Anyway, that probably didn’t help you at all, but our sons seem to have a few things in common so I thought I’d share what my thinking is at this point.

As always, wishing you both the best, whatever you decide to do!

6

Son has several friends who went to Purchase either for undergrad or grad for Jazz Bass. They seem to love it and have had many gigs in NYC. He has jazz percussionist friends at Wm Paterson who also like their school and gig in the city. My feeling is that the classical training at Purchase will be informal and it would be easy to neglect it since the major emphasis would be the jazz studio. (As a high school student, he went to a jazz camp with Todd Coolman and loved learning from him.) Mr. Coolman does have many connections in the jazz world and brings in many great artists to work with his students. It is tough to realize that their first choices are not financially feasible. We’ve seen too many of our sons’ friends saddled with crushing student loans so would never advise taking out plus loans. Congratulations to your son on his great choices.

7

That does help @AsMother and you are absolutely right…he has terrific choices and will be good wherever he lands. I just woke up this morning in a terrible state of second-guessing anxiety. It really isn’t like me!

Thanks @Momofbassist ! It it is reassuring to hear about happy gigging students!

8

@indeestudios “I just woke up this morning in a terrible state of second-guessing anxiety. It really isn’t like me!”

I can assure you that it’s very much like me–I’m just feeling particularly chilled out today (and our choices are more limited anyway) :slight_smile:

9

You’re making the right choice, GO WHERE THE MONEY IS!

Honestly a good state program can give you just as many opportunities as a conservatory with the right outlook. Especially if he’s thinking about going into a grad program (where there is more likelihood of funding).

No one should spend that much money on a Bachelors degree. Keep focused, learn a lot, and look towards the future.

10

Second guessing (and buyer’s remorse in May sometimes) is part of the process. You are not alone. And you’re making an excellent choice!

11

If I had to give one piece of advice, don’t fret about the second guessing and buyers remorse, it goes with the territory, especially since in so many ways it is hard to judge results. I am sure there are people out there who went to a school that was more affordable who later on, if they dont’ make it in music, say "If I had just gone to X school, that cost too much, I would have done better, and like many things in life, it is fretting about what Churchill used to call the imponderable ifs accumulating. Kids who go to one high level program wonder if the one they turned down would have been better, seeing the faults with ones choice is often easier than the positives. Taking a leap into music is just that, leaping off a cliff, unlike many careers/avocations there are no firm rules, no ‘do this, do that, you’ll do well’, all there is is you better be passionate, be willing to work your tail off, and be willing to chase an elusive muse:)

12

A lot of us can relate. We had some financial setbacks due to health issues in the family at the time our musician was applying. I just want to say that your son has two great choices that are affordable, both near the city, both with great faculty, the possibility of doing jazz and classical, and access to gigs. It’s all good!

After he graduates, if he wants to continue school, he can go for the best schools that offer funding.

I think that debt is even worse for those in the arts: the need to pay back loans is very limiting in terms of choices for those years after graduation.

Getting into these schools, including NEC and New School along with Purchase and Wm. Paterson, is a huge validation of talent and accomplishment- and it is amazing he has only been playing for 2 1/2 years.

It sounds like he has a great attitude and is a great kid as well as musician. He will do wonderfully I am sure!

13

@indeestudios, first of all, congratulations to your son for the great admissions results. He clearly has a lot of talent, and it’s all the more impressive given the relatively short amount of time he’s been playing the bass. You’ve already received great advice in this thread, but I thought I’d try to provide additional reassurance from my perspective that both Purchase and William Paterson have very strong jazz programs with some excellent teachers and talented students. So much of a student’s development is the inner drive, commitment and passion, and if your son has that, the programs at either Purchase or William Paterson are clearly strong enough to provide him an environment where he can flourish. My son encounters and plays with students and recent graduates from both schools in the NYC jazz scene and very much enjoys their playing. Best of luck to your son as he continues the journey.

14

As a parent of a Jazz Bass player who is about to graduate from NEC, I thought I would add my thoughts.

I was in a similar situation to you when our son applied in terms of my own knowledge about music and in regard to dealing with competing offers (although we had nothing as financially delicious as Purchase to consider because my son did not apply to any state schools).

So the first bit of advice I will give you is advice my son’s bass teacher told me. Looking back I think it was GREAT advice. The key to success in Jazz is not only who you study privately with, or what classes you take (ear training, theory etc…) it is finding opportunities to play with as many different people in as many different situations as you can. In other words putting yourself out there. So with that in mind ALL your choices are great. Purchase, Patterson and New School have access to NYC and NEC has the whole Boston scene.

The next thing to consider is what I call “soft factors”.

First what will make your son likely to build those connections and social groups so he has those opportunities to play in many different groups with many different people. And in that I suspect the four programs you list actually DO VARY. I can’t speak for the other three places (although I sort of know the New School). But I can speak to NEC because my son is there. Because NEC has a connection with Tufts and Harvard the students it attracts lean toward being a bit more academic and a bit more “nerdy” than maybe similar students at New School. That doesn’t mean they are better or worse musicians. It is just who they are. There are some students, like my son, who simply would not do well socially if he was not with other equally “nerdy” musicians. I suspect students at Purchase are probably going to be pretty academic as well, but I am not sure…I mostly say it because students I know personally who have gone to a CUNY or SUNY school have been very academically oriented.

Second where will your son be emotionally healthy. Obviously if your child is stressed about $$ or having to work excessively to afford travel home or if you can not afford to visit, those things can make him more anxious and depressed. If your son does not like the facilities, the practice rooms, the environment, the other students those things can make him depressed. I always tell parents to NOT DISCOUNT the value of being close to home. Kids get sick. They hit a bump and need to process something. They face a social dilemma. It is super valuable for a young 18-22 year old to go have a meal with mom and dad and work through things. It is hard to do over the phone and if travel is costly it might not occur as often as it is needed. I can’t tell you the number of times we have gotten a text from our son asking us to meet for brunch or dinner over the past four years. Those texts always give me a bit of a knot in my stomach as a mom. My brain immediately goes “What now?” And sometimes the things he is processing with us are big life questions about his career, what he is observing, what he is reading and how that impacts his thinking about his future. But other times it is little things such as I need help figuring out what summer program to apply to or questions about his living situation. 18 year olds are NOT ADULTS just yet and they still can benefit from more Mom and Dad time, especially if you have a good relationship with your child.

Third is a bit harder to think about but what about if your child decides he wants to not do music. Are there ways for him to explore or take other classes outside his music major. Are there opportunities to meet students who are not music majors. Who are those students? Are there clubs and other extra curricular activities that you can see your child being engaged in?

Finally the real decision should come down to your child. If he is NEC Or bust, then talk it out and be honest with him about what it means to have loans and how that might impact his graduate school choices. Also CALL NEC and talk to their financial people (who are excellent) and maybe explain that NEC is your son’s top choice BUT you have these other offers. You might be surprised what they come up with.

15

Thank you all so much for your responses; each one was helpful and reassuring!

16

Just n case you want a chuckle:
http://www.theonion.com/article/failure-get-private-college-be-most-financially-re-52673

17

LOL @bridgenail ! It’s true! :smiley:

18

Once you get beyond the financial issue, which is enormous, compare programs deeply. Compare side by side the actual courses at each. As someone posted, each school IS different.

While they all might be good in their own way, learn as much as you can about the inside of each school. How many classes will he take each day, how challenging are those classes, how much time will he have to network outside of his classes. Peer group interaction also colors his education. Another comment about teachers. Learning if the dynamic between your son and the teacher works is obviously the driving factor. But continue asking questions about how each studio is run; they will not be the same. Perhaps one teacher has a regular studio group, where all the bassists player for each other. Is one teacher so busy, outside of the school, that he’s not at the school all that often?

We all really appreciate just how complicated these choices are. 4 years go by in a flash. When your son is done with undergrad, and if he is loaded with debt, will he have to take a nonmusic job to start paying those debts? This will heavily color his creative options once out of school. And then there’s the grad school question. Wishing you well!

19

What a great post @HappyCello ! After reading, S and I went through the curriculum and course descriptions line by line, and it was really clarifying. We also re-watched youtube video of jazz performances, and checked out classical performances more closely this time, too. As for teacher/studio, he liked both, but one is clearly more profoundly dedicated to teaching.

@StacJip …your post was SO helpful. Those “soft factors” have been weighing on me a lot, but have been fairly secondary in what I had discussed with S. There are some kids who I think probably do better far from home, but I’m sure S would just be able to deal and keep anxiety to a minimum knowing that if he needs to work through something, we can be there. S also hangs out with an incredibly diverse group of people, and had some concerns, especially regarding Eastman, about not having people around with diversity of interests. (This after running into a “euphonium buddy” attending there who was having a tough social adjustment to all-musicians-all-the-time.) I think that was a lot of the reason NEC was so attractive…all the BU students around, and he was able to meet up with a friend currently at Harvard. When seriously weighing those factors, we realize how fortunate S is that his affordable choices also come out on top with regards to the soft factors.

This thread has been great in helping both S and I. After going through each factor, S has decided that Purchase is his school, and he is truly excited and happy about it. Thanks for all the wisdom shared!

20

Congratulations! Purchase is a great school, and so close to NYC. Your son sounds very talented, but just as important, he has a great attitude.