<p>I wonder how many of those females that were raped/assaulted were in a state of mind in which they could use a firearm responsibly in the first place.</p>
<p>Assuming mini isn’t just ■■■■■■■■ the thread.</p>
<p>Well, if guns are protective as is claimed, there’s a way to find out, isn’t there? Remember, it may be the threat that women students have guns that will be enough to stave off the student felons.</p>
<p>Campus safety isn’t about individual rights.</p>
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<p>Why should the state (or university) be responsible for the individual?.. once again, the state is not responsible for ensuring that people exercise their rights - it is only responsible for protecting those rights. People may exercise them (or not) as they wish. </p>
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<p>There is no “subclass” if the right is allowed to be exercised equally (by anyone who meets the requirements of age, criminal history, etc.). The word “subclass” implies something that is forced on people. Stop twisting words.
It is you who wants to create a “subclass” of locations (i.e. college campuses) where people cannot use the same means of self-protection that they can elsewhere.</p>
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<p>Well… what is it about then? Is it about curtailing personal freedom to provide a false sense of security, perhaps? Or is it something else? Please explain your view here…</p>
<p>And in response to the actual topic here - The gun dealer did nothing wrong by selling the gun to Cho. He simply got caught up in an unfortunate set of circumstances. Like it or not, he is connected to the VT incident, and I think its great that he is speaking out in favor of allowing students to CCW.</p>
<p>Why concealed only ? Why not let every student carry an unconcealed weapon ? Then everyone would be safe. Much safer than just a few random students carrying. Then in an altercation each student would be equal. If only one was armed it wouldn’t be fair.</p>
<p>Forcing students to arm themselves against their will is not really any better than forcing them to disarm themselves. Mini, you are advocating replacing one restrictive policy with another.</p>
<p>People should be responsible for their own defense. If they are uncomfortable carrying a firearm, it should be their choice. It should also be their choice to carry.</p>
<p>Many people promote CC over open carry for a couple reasons. First, the actual people carrying remain annonymous. This provides a factor of deterrance, in that any criminal would have to guess which students/faculty are armed. It also saves those who carry from harassment. Many citizens and LEOs do not know what gun laws are on the books. Quite a few people have been arrested for carrying, even though it was perfectly legal. Second, it saves hoplophobes from being distracted in class. Let’s face it, there are a lot of people who are legitimately afraid of firearms.</p>
<p>Guns on campus are ridiculous.</p>
<p>1) Imagine you are a student in a class with a gun. Where do you think you’re probably going to keep the gun? On the desk in front of you? Not likely. It’s probably at the bottom of your bookbag. What’s the likelihood that you’ll get to it in time after a guy burst into your classroom firing?</p>
<p>2) Having 20 people shooting in a classroom is not really safer than having one person shooting. Ricochets, crossfire - all adds up to a very bad situation.</p>
<p>3) As a police officer said, in regards to this idea, when the police come, how do they know who’s the “bad guy”? The officers will likely shoot anyone with a gun that won’t immediately put it down. With the noise of a gun battle and the resulting adrenaline, “innocent” kids are going to be shot by the police.</p>
<p>4) College kids don’t always have the most mature attitude when dealing with crises in general. What happens when Student finds his girlfriend is cheating on him, or he’s about to flunk out, etc.? When the gun is just sitting there, there’s a much higher likelihood that he may do something he regrets. Will it be common? No. But neither are current shootouts on campus.</p>
<p>5) This makes it tougher to attract good faculty to the school. I can tell you, as a future professor, that I would never teach at a school that allows students to carry guns. And, in having this discussion with other professors, I am not alone. It’s bad enough to have to fight with students about grades, papers, etc. and face the tenure clock. I don’t want to hand out F papers to students that may be packin’. The F students aren’t usually the most mature students with excellent decision-making skills.</p>
<p>BTW, I think it’s funny that there’s a word for fear of guns. There’s a legitimate reason why a person would be a little nervous with a gun sitting a few feet away. I didn’t know most of my classmates well enough to trust them, so why should I feel comfortable that they have a loaded handgun they can use at any time? I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be wary of a tool that can kill you - whose only purpose, in fact, is to hurt and kill, and can do it at a pretty extensive range.</p>
<p>[Gang</a> Lu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_Lu]Gang”>1991 University of Iowa shooting - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>You might want to be aware of that story, DespSeekPhd.</p>
<p>I am aware of that story. I’m not certain what you’re referring to.</p>
<p>“1) Imagine you are a student in a class with a gun. Where do you think you’re probably going to keep the gun? On the desk in front of you? Not likely. It’s probably at the bottom of your bookbag. What’s the likelihood that you’ll get to it in time after a guy burst into your classroom firing?”
–Most people who CCW carry in an Inside the Waistband Holster (IWB). The draw time (depending on what you are wearing and how much you practice is usually under 2 seconds.</p>
<p>“2) Having 20 people shooting in a classroom is not really safer than having one person shooting. Ricochets, crossfire - all adds up to a very bad situation.”
Considering only about 1% of people are able to legally CCW, it would be rare to have everyone armed.
Also, which is better, 20 people shooting at the shooter, or the shooter murdering 20 people? Your situation has never happened…although one guy tried to rob a gunstore, once. IIRC about 6 people fired at him. No innocents were injured.</p>
<p>“4) College kids don’t always have the most mature attitude when dealing with crises in general. What happens when Student finds his girlfriend is cheating on him, or he’s about to flunk out, etc.? When the gun is just sitting there, there’s a much higher likelihood that he may do something he regrets. Will it be common? No. But neither are current shootouts on campus.”
–We are talking about letting people who can already CCW carry on campus. These people carry off campus just fine. This isn’t a big problem outside of campus. Why would on campus be any different?</p>
<p>“5) This makes it tougher to attract good faculty to the school. I can tell you, as a future professor, that I would never teach at a school that allows students to carry guns. And, in having this discussion with other professors, I am not alone. It’s bad enough to have to fight with students about grades, papers, etc. and face the tenure clock. I don’t want to hand out F papers to students that may be packin’. The F students aren’t usually the most mature students with excellent decision-making skills.”
–I suggest you never teach at any state university in Utah, Colorado State University, or Blue Ridge Community College. They have not experienced a single CCW related incident in over 60 combined semesters.</p>
<p>“There’s a legitimate reason why a person would be a little nervous with a gun sitting a few feet away.”
–Why? Modern firearms don’t just randomly go off. The only instance I know of where a firearm discharged without being in a fire or by being used negligently is where it was flung across an MRI room when the magnet turned on. The firing pin safety was pulled, due to the magnetic field, and the firing pin struck the primer, causing the pistol to discharge, when the pistol hit the machine. The cop wasn’t too happy! That’s not exactly a fear that I would be worried about…The cop had asked if it was safe. The MRI worker told him it would be fine…oops…</p>
<p>My backpack comment was a result of knowing about many students (mostly in Colorado - yes, I’m aware there are campuses that allow it) who carry their guns in this way.</p>
<p>While only 1% of students on these campuses may CCW now, with the VT publicity, I suspect more will do so (providing their universities allow it).</p>
<p>Your point about 20 shooting at the shooter is not realistic. In many classrooms, there isn’t a clear division between someone walking in and the rest of the class. It depends on the size of the class. So you don’t have 20 people shooting at the shooter; you have 20 people trying to shoot at the shooter and hitting people in between. If you do have a classroom with a clear demarcation, the professor is at the front of the room and is likely going to be between the students and the shooter. Not a good position to be in.</p>
<p>On campus is much different than off campus. You have a large number of teenagers and young adults, lots of available alcohol, and emotions that often run high. Lots of things happen on campus that don’t happen elsewhere, like hazing. A college campus is nothing like the “outside world.”</p>
<p>Not having an incident on a handful of campuses is not representative. Those are all campuses that tend to draw heavily from the local area.The local areas tend to have a long-standing tradition of guns, which usually goes hand in hand with a focus on gun safety. That is not the case for most campuses.</p>
<p>Saying “The scenario has never happened” is not a very good argument, since colleges don’t usually allow CCW. A grocery store, again, is not the same thing - different population, setting - and those things do matter.</p>
<p>I’m not an idiot. I don’t think the gun is going to magically go off. But I don’t likely know the person next to me. Is he depressed? Suicidal? Psychotic? Before you argue the validity of that statement, many of the people in classes with the VT shooter had no idea he was off his rocker. I’ve sat with a student in class who later killed himself. I had no idea, even though I’d talked to him. A professor I know had a student who left class and shot his roommate (off campus). Many professors have had incidents in class with violent students. I don’t think it’s wise to throw guns into the mix.</p>
<p>And while we’re at it, let me just mention the high incidence of campus rape and say that guns may not be a good addition to that. Also, your students who are perfectly safe gun owners normally may not be so safe after a drunken frat party. There’s been plenty of off-campus examples of that.</p>
<p>Ok, some people will carry in a backpack. There are even special backpacks with holsters built in. They are usually a secondary carry system, for most people. Although some people want such a system. As long as it is safe (something guarding the trigger), it doesn’t make a terrible difference in my mind. You say that someone could not get to it in time, if there was a shooting. While that is definitely bad for that individual, it has not negatively affected the situation…the shooter is still there, and so are the innocent targets. The possibility that CCW holders might not help is not a reason to ban CCW on campus.</p>
<p>So, you think it is better to leave the shooter free to do whatever harm they want, rather than risk someone accidentally shooting an innocent while stopping the shooter? That seems rather backward to me.</p>
<p>Also realize, CCW permit holders are responsible for every shot they fire. If they accidentally shoot someone while ending a rampage, they will likely be sued for millions (the shooter will usually be held legally responsible for felony murder, as they were the root cause of the incident.)</p>
<p>Hmm…drunken frat party shootings…ever heard of a CCW holder doing that? If you haven’t, it may be because it is illegal to drink while carrying. (remember that “over 5 times less likely to commit a crime” detail?)</p>
<p>So, there is a high incidence of rape on campus. You propose that we disarm the law-abiding citizens because of that? Most sexual assaults and rapes between college students involve alcohol (usually consumed by both parties). As I mentioned above, it is illegal to drink and carry, so the CCW holder at such a party would not likely be armed. That really makes it a moot argument, as neither side would be legally armed.</p>
<p>Hazing rarely occurs outside of educational and training areas…probably because it is called “assault” in most other locations (or a bunch of idiots &*%^ing around, if you’re not into the law enforcement bit).</p>
<p>CCW permit holders safely carry in many environments, such as shopping malls, churches, offices, highways, small businesses, restaurants, homes, etc. Why is campus such a radically different environment, and what about campus will turn a previously (extremely) law-abiding person into a hot-headed killer? I just have not seen any indication of that.</p>
<p>Sure, 11 campuses is not a great sample group. I’ll agree with that. However, that small sample group is a positive argument for CCW on campus, or a neutral one, if you discount it. We have a limited sample group that shows no signs of negative results. So, why do we need to ban CCW on campus? The “gun-free zone” signs don’t exactly have a good track record in stopping crime…</p>
<p>So, we should limit CCW holders (a small and very safe segment of society) from carrying on campus (but not elsewhere) because another small subset of society, who usually do not have CCW permits are unstable? Could you explain the connection there?</p>
<p>This is about whether or not to allow licensed individuals to carry the best tool to defend themselves with, while on campus. If you think this is a bad idea, please show me evidence as to why. We can both make hypothetical situations all day, but that doesn’t really accomplish anything.</p>