Many Mids are upset by changes

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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<p>
[quote]
... if I had an applicant at the moment I certainly would want him to be aware of all that is going on on the yard. An informed applicant makes a much better Plebe. If a new Plebe has viewed the Academy through rose colored glasses, Plebe summer has the potential for heartache.

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<p>Are you serious? Imo, this discussion would have been about as much a waste of time for mine as I could imagine. As my dad mighta said, like a tit on a boar hog. Talk about monumentally useless distraction. This would be it. He's just not this "cerebral." Thank goodness.</p>

<p>And re:

[quote]
[a] particular questions come immediately to mind from that list:
1. What is the most pressing issue standing between the student body and the administration?

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</p>

<p>The answer is always the same. For the students it's "administration." For admin, it's ... can you guess?</p>

<p>and lastly ... for now ...

[quote]
I really don't think expecting the majority of the Brigade to make the Honors list is realistic. That unless you subscribe to grade inflation.

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<p>It's absolutely realistic. Academics, a great many who have been persuaded that their job is to master the bell curve instead of helping every student to master the subject they are being paid to help them master, have long tried to persuade the public that there must be as many F's as A's in any given group. Why so? That puts all the onus on the student instead of he or she who's being paid to make them ALL winners. Not just a select few. No the better theory would be everyone of these USNA ought to be an A, and if they fail, then it is a major failure on the part of those who are hired to lead them academically. Sorta like eating ... If they all should have a piece of chicken, well then they all should be expected to get an A in calculus. Sadly, even at a place like USNA, the professorial bell curve reigns supreme.</p>

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<p>Speaking as a relative newcomer who came to this board to get information about the USNA and its changes:</p>

<p>It's not helpful when we have to slog through multiple posts about breakfast, lunch and dinner menus. Are we going to be subjected to this trivia for weeks to come? <strong>yawn</strong></p>

<p>Ditto for the multitude of posts about cheap bottles of merlot. This board would be more useful if these tidbits of information, interesting only to the parties involved, were handled as personal messages (PM) and not put out to the world-at-large. </p>

<p>The most useful information comes from the midshipmen, who come on this board and post first-hand knowledge about situation on the Yard. When compared to other CC boards, the student presence is a minority - and if we cut down on the trivia and the insider jokes, bets, etc. perhaps we could hear more mids and their opinions.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It's absolutely realistic. Academics, a great many who have been persuaded that their job is to master the bell curve instead of helping every student to master the subject they are being paid to help them master, have long tried to persuade the public that there must be as many F's as A's in any given group.

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<p>Now you are the one joking. I have watched my husband grade exams for the past 20 year at the Junior/Senior and graduate level in Engineering. He certainly does not grade on a bell curve - to do so would mean on has to curve the grades - not something that the Academy does either, once in a while they "pad grades" to bring the entire class up.</p>

<p>When one writes an exam it is written to test the knowledge of all students, it is not written to test the top in hopes of getting a clear bottom - which is what a bell curve does for you. The grades speak for them selves. He has rarely given either a D or failed a student. When end of semester grades are determined if they all fall in the B to A range that is what is given, he certainly does not look for a cut off point to give c's and below. To suggest that a great many have been instructed to use a bell curve is not what we see at our institution at all and firmly believe that it is not done at USNA either. To expect the entire Brigade to get A is not realistic. The class profiles will tell you so.</p>

<p>
[quote]
then it is a major failure on the part of those who are hired to lead them academically.

[/quote]
Lets blame the first rate faculty if kiddo doesn't make the dean or Supes list after all what you are stating is it isn't the Mids fault, it has to be the faculty's fault. It certainly couldn't be the Mids fault who chose to not seek EI. There was not one single instructor in the 12 courses my mid has had thus far that did not make time for him when approached. This faculty is first rate and to suggest otherwise when your child has been in class for all of 2 weeks is uncalled for - do not blame the faculty, your kiddos grades are your kiddos, not the doing of some failing of the academic hired to instruct them! </p>

<p>As for this all not helping your kiddo great for you but the few applicants that I have met have found this site to be very helpful. Better to know what you could be in for, if you have unrealistic expectations that todays rules are tomorrows, that todays EC's will be around tomorrow, That academic policy is not going to change etc...and you get to USNA with those unrealistic expectation and everything changes - there are those Plebes that will have a hard time and feel that there dream of an institution has not lived up to was marketed. And Lets be real Admissions does market the Institution - just Look at summer scaminar. An informed "consumer and their parents" will make a better Plebe and better midshipmen parents. Better to know what could happen than have your head in the sand - that it will always be the status quo - especially helpful to those who have no military background.</p>

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<p>GoNavy2011</p>

<p>Quite frankly our Mids do not have the time post and for many companies this site is off limits. Last year it was blocked to the brigade for first and half of second semester. </p>

<p>So yes, we would all like to hear from the Mids - unlike other Forums it is not as possible here.</p>

<p>Do what we all do - if you don't like the subject line then don't read the thread. Works for most people.</p>

<p>I find it interesting that there are those on this forum that want everyone who does not share their opinion off. But those of us with differing views have made it clear that we are open to all participants.</p>

<p>Discussion/debate is a good thing.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
That puts all the onus on the student instead of he or she who's being paid to make them ALL winners. Not just a select few. No the better theory would be everyone of these USNA ought to be an A, and if they fail, then it is a major failure on the part of those who are hired to lead them academically.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wow - what a concept! I have to agree. This is ostensibly a school full of extremely bright students who WANT to be there, WANT to learn & WANT to succeed. Seems like it would be easy for the instructors to teach them all enough to do very very well. Granted, this certainly doesn't absolve the students from their responsibilities, but one would think that the instructors DO have considerably more to work with than what is found in a typical high school - wonder what the average percentage is of high school students who are "Honor Students". How does that compare to the 22.5% mentioned above for USNA?</p>

<p>WP - I've never really thought of instruction/grades other than in terms of the "Bell Curve". Very enlightening post. Thank you.</p>

<p>I've been enjoying everyone's posts today. Lots of good points being made.</p>

<p>Regardless of the situation in King Hall/Dahlgren these days, there is always plenty of "food for thought" to be found here! </p>

<p>Buon Appetito! :)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
instructors to teach them all enough to do very very well.

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To teach them enough to do well - is that not the same as the bare minimum? I want the faculty to teach them more than enough - take them to a hirer level - which is exactly what my son has experienced. Some students will be able to handle this some will not. Some will go on the theory of doing the bare minimum in HS got them the A, at USNA that will not work. Until each of us sits in a class at USNA we cannot judge this faculty. We hear from our Mids, mine has had good experiences thus far - it is a very biased view that we all will get and it will be a view of the instructor that will be made only on grade received, after all if I get the A he/she was good but if I goofed around and never went to EI or approached the faculty - all within my means - the instructor of course is to blame.</p>

<p>How many of you went on the Tour of the Labs? Talked to the faculty giving the presentations, went to alumni hall and talked to the faculty manning the department tables, went into the library and talked to the librarians and faculty posted there? It was very enlightening. In the Academic World, faculty at other institutions know the Academic reputation for both this Faculty and the students they are turning out. My husband gets grad students who are USNA grads (last one finished a master a year ago) These are well educated individuals. Do not blindly blame this faculty - there are two participants in the educational process - each hold the cards to the students future, with the student holding equal if not more or the responsibility. </p>

<p>The views presented here are exactly what we experienced in private school - give johnny the A or else he won't get into first choice college even though johnny is doing pretty average (by todays standards that would be a B) work. So lets just give the Entire Brigade A's in academic courses and move onto Military training.</p>

<p>You can lead a bright horse to drink but how much is up to that horse. No matter what I do (fill the bucket fuller or make it less so that the horse is not so overwhelmed) I still can not make it drink.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Are you serious? Imo, this discussion would have been about as much a waste of time for mine as I could imagine. As my dad mighta said, like a tit on a boar hog. Talk about monumentally useless distraction. This would be it. He's just not this "cerebral." Thank goodness.

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<p>guess you are not climbing on that bus afterall. No surprise.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>You assume it would have been a waste of time, just as I will assume you have not asked. No doubt he is beyond the "exploring available options" phase of college considerations.</p></li>
<li><p>Keep sexest analogies to yourself. This is 2007 and they are offensive.</p></li>
<li><p>If you feel this is a "monumental waste of time," they why are you wasting so much time on it? </p></li>
<li><p>"Not that cerebral." Don't know what to say. Sorry? </p></li>
<li><p>"everyone ought to be an A." Not everyone gets to be "first," but will agree all are capable, and all should make the effort. </p></li>
<li><p>Bell curves can be moved. Hoping that is the case so we can get the mids back to the football games.</p></li>
<li><p>No, the answers are not all the same. Sadly, the questions are not asked enough- IMO.</p></li>
<li><p>And I have no doubt she is serious.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>USNA2011- I would have gladly opted for a more expensive vintage, but seeing how I am trying to help USNA69 keep his blood pressure under control these days, thought I would take it easy on the old goat! ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]

I've been enjoying everyone's posts today. Lots of good points being made.
Regardless of the situation in King Hall/Dahlgren these days, there is always plenty of "food for thought" to be found here!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>see- despite all the "trivia," not all the natives are restless! </p>

<p>
[quote]
Do what we all do - if you don't like the subject line then don't read the thread. Works for most people.</p>

<p>I find it interesting that there are those on this forum that want everyone who does not share their opinion off. But those of us with differing views have made it clear that we are open to all participants.</p>

<p>Discussion/debate is a good thing.

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<p>Yes it does, Yes we have, and YES IT IS. :)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Keep sexest analogies to yourself. This is 2007 and they are offensive.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Shucks, just my growing up on the farm. You know. Slopping the hogs. Milking the cows. (whoops, sorry) ;) Just reminiscing in all of this.</p>

<p>I meant to say "like a biologically misplaced mammary gland on a member of the male swine". Just not much function or value. We might even agree, not even very attractive. </p>

<p>Your pal,
Whistle Swine :cool: </p>

<p>P.S. Maybe think of me each time you enjoy a BLT? ;)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Someone recently quoted in the 900s for Supt’s and Dean’s Lists. This is nothing of which to be proud. Given the pedigree of the applicants, there is no reason that the majority of the Brigade cannot be on the Dean’s List. The correct goal is excellence, not competence.

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<p>I know exactly what you are trying to say, but think about it for a moment….if the majority of the Mids at the Academy made the Dean's list it wouldn't be viewed as the Dean's list any longer....by the Mids or most anyone else. In fact 24 hours after the Supt made such an announcement; "We are proud to announce that 64% of the Midshipmen are on the Dean's list" there would be articles in an half dozen newspapers quoting “enlightened academics” about the declining standards at the Naval Academy that account for the disproportionate rise in the numbers on the Deans list, even if exactly the opposite was true. That may not be the case at all, all the kids on the list may have earned that distinction through hard work and determination, but in the end if it’s something that everyone has or gets to do, it’s no longer an “exclusive distinction”. </p>

<p>I don’t know at what number we should be satisfied, or if someone should come up with another measurement of academic success to encourage or reward Mids but I do know it can’t be the majority. In fact if reminds me of another pet peeve of mine, the rate at which Medals are awarded. This isn’t a knock on the Army as all the services have gone down this path, but after the 1983 Grenada invasion, the Army awarded more medals than the total number of soldiers who landed on the island. </p>

<p>Whether you are talking about earning the right to be on the Dean’s list or the distinction of wearing a campaign ribbon, it should mean something special and you can only accomplish that if you have standards set high enough that few can meet.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Whether you are talking about earning the right to be on the Dean’s list or the distinction of wearing a campaign ribbon, it should mean something special and you can only accomplish that if you have standards set high enough that few can meet.

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</p>

<p>
[quote]
"everyone ought to be an A." Not everyone gets to be "first," but will agree all are capable, and all should make the effort.

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</p>

<p>You are absolutely correct, as is Navy2010. We all hope that our kiddo is first, makes the supes list, gets that E ribbon on pistols and makes the sports team of their choice. We all want the best for ours, unfortunately the best may not be first, may only be the deans list , or even may be a good solid B and maybe the eys didn't work so well at the range or wasn't their day in the pool. The bottom line is you need to celebrate your child's accomplishments no matter what they are. If you can prove that they did not make the effort then maybe you have a case but until then Celebrate where they are, it is hard, there is no time, they are pulled in many different directions. I truly believe they all, in there own way, are trying to do their best. They all make their own priorities (well at least they used to) - they may not be the same as yours or mine. But they know what grades mean in the end, they know what Military Performance, Conduct and Physical fitness mean. Maybe your mid is quite satisfied with a solid academic B - doesn't mean the have settled for it, just maybe the other three items in the OOM meant more to them. Can't fault anyone who sets priorities and satisfies them in their mind. I would much rather have a happy well adjusted mid than one overly stressed about grades and performance. They are young, they certainly do not need the pressure of "I must make straight A or I am not fit for this Academy."</p>

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<p>WP..... LOL- not a chance! </p>

<p>(but would not be giving up that "biologically misplaced mammary gland on a member of the male swine" any time soon..... you might just need that "non-functioning-of-little-value mammary artery" to bypass the coronary ones you are clogging with all those BLT's!)
(unless, of course, you are going to stick to those saphenous vein grafts that last 1/5th of the time....your choice "pal!" ;) .... but it seems to me someone better be looking after your bacon!!! :rolleyes:)</p>

<p>the least I can do is pass you the mayo-
one "pal" to another!!! :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The bottom line is you need to celebrate your child's accomplishments no matter what they are.

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</p>

<p>You bet.</p>

<p>There is a tradition at Navy (still there the last time I looked) that the members of the graduating class collect a dollar from each and present it to the "Anchor," no doubt along the lines of "only as strong as the weakest link."</p>

<p>(as an aside, wondering the last time anyone asked their MD what their med school GPA was....:rolleyes: )</p>

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<p>I see the bottom line is that the academics have framed good grades as a competition ... winner and everyone else. Losers in a race.</p>

<p>Truth is they are each and everyone selected because they can and should win. Learning calculus should not be a competition. It's only because the academics have made it such. </p>

<p>As for grade inflation, well even the bell-curvers are among the guilty here. It's just that now failures get C's, an occasional D, rare F. It's all the same. Just different median.</p>

<p>Way too many assume ... only a relative few can win the ribbon, really know calc. </p>

<p>Ever wonder why the profs don't get docked, especially at places like USNA, where every single kid can and should get an A, for any students who don't? As one said ... all bright, all highly motivated, all NEED to know. And the answer is simply... "that's just not 'reality'". </p>

<p>Maybe not. It should be though and to defend the academic's reality is simply making excuses for the wrong failures. No, the Dean would win if every single one of his faculty devoted himself to making sure each and every one of his potentially A students reaches his potential. They don't have to be the "best." They only have to be an A. Again, this is not a race. Like the USN, it should be viewed as "we all eat A's" not merely a select few get the prime rib. The others hamburger.</p>

<p>P.S. Noting the above political slap, I guess the notion of respect only matters if I say so. Sorry W. After all you're only the Commander In Chief. What would you know. Clever.</p>

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<p>^^^ no, just trying to make a point. </p>

<p>But your points are well taken.
I don't mind shifting the bell curve to the right when too many A's get achieved.... like to keep upping the anty.... but am dead-set against shifting it to the left... instead of investigating a whole lot of "why's" and "how comes"..... </p>

<p>you are correct- everything at the academies gets rated and ranked... everything. they even rate and rank each other. I would fail that test miserably...... but there has to be a #1..... and unfortunately it is engrained in our culture... "10 richest people"... "10 sexiest (men/women....your choice) alive".... "top 10 songs/hospitals/resturants/chefs/golfers/b'ball teams/ etc, etc, etc...... </p>

<p>so the USNA is not so different after all.
But if it makes you feel any better WP, I will put bacon back on my "10 foods to avoid list".... ;) (only joking...honest!!!) </p>

<p>(as was the "political slap" post... not meant to offend, or even to be disrespectful for that matter.... the point was to highlight (with a bit of sarcastic humor I thought)....that even those "less than at the top of their game" can make it to the "top" afterall!!! and even without any "A's" on their ivy-league transcript!!! ) </p>

<p>But where was I....
you are correct... everyone "would win if every single one of his [her] faculty devoted himself [herself] to making sure each and every one of his [her] potential A students reaches his [her] potential." </p>

<p>What I was trying to point out is that "potential" is very individualized.... for some, it is that A.. and perhaps even beyond. For others, perhaps it is that C.... an "A" effort for them nevertheless. </p>

<p>To me, it is the effort that should be recognized and rewarded.... along with the results achieved. They are not mutually exclusive.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
the Dean would win if every single one of his faculty devoted himself to making sure each and every one of his potentially A students reaches his potential. They don't have to be the "best." They only have to be an A.

[/quote]
WP you are making an assumption that this faculty does not care, does not make sure everyone reaches their potential. How do you come to such an assumption - based purley on the fact the ONLY 22.5% made academic honors? Maybe your kiddo after two weeks has a professor or instructor that they do not care for? Isn't the definition of an A the best. We cannot always be the best and certainly not everyone who takes Calc will get or deserves to get an A. The faculty can only do so much the burden really does fall on the student unless you are well intrenched in leave no student behind where we will over test the students and then give pay raises based on those tests. Your entire argument is just "teacher slamming" a popular topic in today's society.</p>

<p>Not everyone at the Academy are potential A students - again check the class profiles do you really think the student who was in the 40/50th percentiles in HS or has SAT scores less than 600 (31% of the Class of 2011 had verbal skills less than 600) is a Potential A student? </p>

<p>Potential like Navy2010 states is a very individual thing. I will applaud the C student who works their tail off to get that C, goes to EI, sees the instructor on a regular basis over an easy A. Remember some kids no matter what will not get Calc or Chem or English or History - learning is very individual. When your child potentially does not get that 4.0 I hope you will celebrate his success in how well he has done and certainly not be disappointed with his faculty.</p>

<p>On another note why is it ok to slam the faculty for what you are claiming to be poor at best yet when we all have concerns over policy changes by the Dant and Supe they are "off limits" Should they not be held responsible too - at least for food?</p>

<p>Why did you support your child enrolling in a the undergraduate College of the Naval Service if you thought so little of the education that he would receive? Why not have done ROTC or are you claiming that no college faculty is doing their job so you picked the best of the bad? Accountability, your kiddo is only accountable to themselves when it comes to their performance to blame someone else certainly does not follow the Navy way... No Excuse Sir.</p>

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<p>No, an A doesn't mean the best. It means a demonstrated knowledge of greater than 90% of the material tested. Every teacher and professor in the world biases what the scoring curve looks like, not by shifting the results (some do), but in the way they write test questions. Most teachers, for every topic they teach, can write an exam that every student will pass, one that every student will fail, or one that falls somewhere in between, based on the difficulty of what they expect the students to demonstrate. </p>

<p>Can every mid be an "A" student? Seems to me that would be true in a world with unlimited time. Given the combined physical, military and academic requirements at USNA, probably isn't realistic for all of them. </p>

<p>By the way, having verbal SAT scores under 600 used to be quite common at even top-notch engineering schools. Many of those were the people who took us to the moon and back. </p>

<p>As several people have stated, every mid is at the Academy to do a job. Simply put, that job is to learn as much as they can. Period. Academic material, military education, whatever. Professors and lab experiences, and even the COC are merely tools to enable them to get that job done. </p>

<p>That's not to say that I agree with mandatory study hours, etc. I expressly disagree with them because, if we can't trust a mid to figure out how and when to study, we shouldn't trust them a few months later to lead men and women into battle.</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>No way. This is a Service Academy. It is more than academics. The 'C's in military performance are reserved for the true 'dirt bags'. Same for conduct. This low a grade in either indicates someone not with the system. They don't deserve recognition.</p>

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<p>'69, God bless you. You said, very eloquently, what many folks in uniform on the Yard have been whispering. I know some parents will take offense to this, so let me apologize in advance, but this reminds me of the parents who travel from all the way across the country to watch their (adult) children go through Sea Trials, hovering over them from event to event. Having spoken to a few of them afterwards, for many it's embarassing. Yes, they are your sons and daughters, but they are grown-ups now, and they voluntarily accepted a coveted seat in a military service academy. In a few years, those sons and daughters will be serving in war zones around the world, and you will not be there to cheer them on.</p>

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<p>USNA69 I believe that is what Profmom is pointing out - you can not base the academics on the Supes and Deans list as they are not representative of the pure academics. Everybody wants all A's in the Faculty graded courses. Sometimes students pick and choose where they are going to excel, some can't excel in all three area's so they pick one or two academics, physical or military. </p>

<p>Having gone to sea trials this year, having watched our son along with Alumni from the Class of 1960 - I did not see one Mid who was embarrassed that their parents took the time and spent the money to watch them successfully complete their Plebe year. Maybe those who did not have a parent there thought it was embarrassing for their shipmates but I can assure you in my Mids company, they were all excited about us being there. The company even got together to meet in a specific spot so the families could all dine together on wednesday night. The plebes no more all posed for pictures in their new youngster boards so that all of the parents attending could take pictures of the entire company of youngsters. They introduced us to friends, shipmates and shipmates families. No one wanted to bolt off the yard and not be with their friends and families like at PPW. They wanted us to meet. Put faces with names. Certainly did not meet one Plebe who was embarrassed and if there were embarrassed plebes, I would suggest that they have bigger issues if they don't like their parents and would not want to celebrate this milestone with them. Goes back to a lot that has been said on strong family relationships. </p>

<p>
[quote]
you will not be there to cheer them on.

[/quote]
But he certainly will know that I am cheering him on from a far. If the Academy invites me to an event you better be sure I will be attending as that is what a parent with a strong family relationship does. So when my adult child invites me on a tiger cruise how is that any different from Sea Trials?</p>

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<p>Navy1974- saw a lot of parents at sea trials- not sure I would describe them as "hovering".... more like "interested observers".... some with cameras a bit more "interested" than others perhaps.... but no one standing around "worried" or "concerned"...... nope, more like "thats MY mid... thats HIS/HER squad".... "company x-y-z...looking sharp!"..... </p>

<p>with all due respect.....big difference in "hovering" and "pride."
and while too much pride can be hurtful, on this occassion I can look past that and say "parent of a Midshipman/woman and proud of it."</p>

<p>anyway...our experience was more like NT's...
and I did not witness any parents "cheering" their mid along..... all in all, they were very respectful of what they were going through and the job of the upperclass men/women getting them through their paces....more of a "restrained entheusiam." Personally, would not have missed it for the world.</p>

<p>Profmom and 2012- great posts, great points, lots to digest and consider.</p>

<p>USNA69- if I read the posts correctly, seems to me they were geared more towards the academic side of things as opposed to military /leadership arenas. I may be mistaken, but that is how I read them. If there are truely "dirt bags" slipping between the cracks, then they should be assiged the grade they have earned. A failing effort is what it is- failing. A significant nothing-held-back effort that fails is another thing entirely.</p>