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<p>Military performance is one thing, pure and simple, and that is attitude. With the proper attitude and minimum effort one will rank well with both their peers and the upper class. It is subjective but with the proper attitude, being a team player, one would never have to worry about a 'C'.</p>
<p>For Plebes doesn't their pro quizzes, inspections etc also enter into the Military Performance along with how they are rated by the Company Officer, peers and upper class? When our Mid showed us the ranking forms - peer review, upper class and Company officer ranking it appeared that the only ranking that was truly used was the Company Officers - or it played such a large percentage that it negated any other information.</p>
<p>After Plebe year is the ranking just a peer ranking and the Company officer - at least that was the impression my Mid gave when asked about ranking. Is the method for ranking also somewhat company specific?</p>
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Military performance is one thing, pure and simple, and that is attitude. With the proper attitude and minimum effort one will rank well with both their peers and the upper class. It is subjective but with the proper attitude, being a team player, one would never have to worry about a 'C'.
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<p>no disagreement here.</p>
<p>but will add in that one would hope the "effort" is right up there with the right "attitude."</p>
<p>Not sure if this adds to your point.....
but I know that athletes "missing" from squad/company duties/events/etc due to their "other" team demands can, and do, take a "hit" in their peer rankings.... not so much from their superiors, but definately from their peers. I am of the belief this is not a reflection of a lack of "effort" or "attitude".... for both can be "present and accounted for" during what time is spent with company/squad.... the "hit" comes from the amount of time "away," more often than not viewed by those left behind as "skating away with"..."getting out of"..."shrugging off".... yet the reality (that of the athlete) is that they are doing just as much but "out of sight" of the very peer group that will rank them...and, as been posted by mids on this issue, "resent" having to pick up the slack. So despite a "good effort," "right attitude," and "team player," one can very well sweat out a "c" from their peers.... somehow the upperclass see beyond this.....</p>
<p>but you may have a different perspective on this. .... curious as to your thoughts.</p>
<p>^^^^^^^My info is dated by about four years but peer evaluation is the most important of the three. It is blended with squad leader, etc. and passed on to the Company Officer. Since he has very little actual first hand observations, his final evaluation is usually somewhere between peer and upper class leaders. I do know professional knowledge is part of the grade but I, someone correct me please, think uniforms, inspections, etc. are a part of the overall upperclass eval. To the best of my knowledge, third and second class are also evaluated by their leaders.</p>
<p>I think jocks get a fair shake. Although, I do know the pendulum also swings on this somewhat. I got treated fairly as did my son. Don't know anyone who wasn't. Again, it is an 'attitude' thing. If an athlete comes back into the company area and doesn't contribute just a bit more than his fair share, he may be looked on as a slacker. But honestly, I would venture to state that peer rankings are created plebe summer and do not vary that much for the remainder of the four years.</p>
<p>The post by Navy2010 about President Bush just about made me totally walk away from this site forever. I am positive that the rhetoric was straight from moveon.org.</p>
<p>Pertaining to the Supe's and Dean's list, from what I hear, you can have a 4.0 in class grades and an A in military, but get a C from fellow mids who don't like you because you do not join in breaking the rules of the academy or are not a social person, but rather an intense study person. One has told me that it is like high a school popularity contest. So with those 2 perfect grades, all of your work is disregarded because you study too much.</p>
<p>Leaders must not break the rules, they can work to change them within the chain of command, but to have order, compliance must be followed especially in a military setting.</p>
<p>If it means not getting on these lists, so be it. Prepare for the future by obtaining knowledge about the military and the educational subject area, and do not be subservient to a popularity contest.</p>
<p>I am basing my view on my mid's view. Everyone has an opinion as the saying goes. There is my opinion. ZAPHOD, please comment.</p>
<p>Good thing they don't grade drivers' tests on a curve...or maybe they should. Hmmm. I remember in one of my education classes we had this discussion and the upshot was that there should be a published criteria for grades, and that all who accomplished the criteria should earn the grade they contracted for. So if your entire class gets As, that's okay as long as your criteria was rigorous and truly measured the learning of the students.</p>
<p>It is not rocket science, and I would like some proof that anyone is this day and age is using Bell Curve methodology to assign student grades. As an aside, the last teacher that I know of that did this was my seventh grade Language Arts teacher. I did not like her. I did, however, get one of the 4 As even though (or maybe because) I handed in a scathing poem about her for extra credit. I still feel badly about that.</p>
<p>It is illustrative, though, that the grades do tend to naturally fall into a Bell Curve. But to force it? No longer an accepted practice in any education class I have been involved in.</p>
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The point I was trying to make, however, remains the same: in the end, it isn't going to matter if you graduated at the top or bottom of the class to anyone but you. No one will ask on a job interview. A few of your peers might remember who was first, and who pulled the anchor slot, but chances are that will be limited to #2 and the next-in-line for the bottom slot. It won't- nor should it- stop you from reaching any goal you set....even the USofA CIC.
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<p>All Navy2010 was trying to show was that even Presidents don't have to be the "star" that maybe we think they are. No body in the end will be judged on where they stood in the class. Just that they graduated. </p>
<p>If you get a chance and are in the DC area stop by the National Archives to see the great documents. They also have a very good exhibit at the moment about our Presidents and their report cards. Very enlightening that for the most part our Presidents were just average or below average guys when it came to their school work.</p>
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Friday, March 30, 2007 - January 1, 2008
Just in time for Spring Break, the family-friendly "School House to White House" exhibition will engage visitors of every age and interest. Documents, artifacts, photos and films drawn from the collections of the National Archives Presidential Libraries reveal fascinating details about children that would grow up to be presidents.
Journey back to a time of one room school houses, large public schools, and private tutors. See these future presidents as young sports stars, choir members, and musicians. Watch them mature into serious college and military academy students. Together these experiences demonstrate the variety of educational and extra-curricular experiences that trained and influenced our nation’s future leaders.
Selected Highlights:</p>
<pre><code>• Discover why John F. Kennedy missed 65 of the term’s 88 days in kindergarten
• See Richard Nixon’s childhood violin, and read his 8th grade autobiography
• Read what Harry Truman wrote in middle school about "Courage."
• Peek at report cards for Harry Truman, Lyndon Johnson, and Jimmy Carter
• Learn what the presidents really thought of their teachers
• Learn which president, while in college, received offers to play professional football.
• "School House to White House" includes more than 150 items from the holdings of the Presidential Libraries.
• There are large photomurals of class photos and graduations, videos showing several presidents as children, and filmed presidential reflections on their school house years.
</code></pre>
<p>This multi-media exhibition explores themes in the early lives of presidents, including:
Grade School – Whether they attended a one-room schoolhouse or private academy, the future presidents discovered a world of opportunity at school.
High School – See how the future presidents blossomed in school. Learn who excelled academically, and who preferred extracurricular activities.
College – All the future presidents continued their education after high school – whether it was a small institution, night school, law school, or a military service academy. Explore some of their college experiences.
Men of Many Talents – Many of the future presidents had talents and developed skills that may surprise you. Learn about their varied interests and discover who sang, who acted, who joined the band, and who enjoyed working in the outdoors.
Team Players – Whether it was football, baseball, golf, or swimming, most of the 20th-century presidents participated enthusiastically in sports. Most continued to follow and participate in sports even after they became President.
Memories – Memoirs, scrapbooks, and letters reveal a range of experiences that shaped the lives of the future presidents. View these materials to glimpse the Presidents’ memories of their early lives.</p>
<p>This multi-media exhibition will be on display through January 1, 2008, and is free and open to the public. The National Archives is located on the National Mall on Constitution Avenue at 9th Street, NW. Fall/Winter hours are 10 A.M. – 5:30 P.M. daily, except Thanksgiving Day and December 25. Spring hours (March 15 through Labor Day) are 10 A.M. – 7 P.M. daily.
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So if your entire class gets As, that's okay as long as your criteria was rigorous and truly measured the learning of the students.</p>
<p>It is illustrative, though that the grades do tend to naturally fall into a Bell Curve. But to force it? No longer an accepted practice in any education class I have been involved in.
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<p>My experience also.. No longer a valid or accepted practice in most educational circles. How funny - 8th grade Latin for my Mid was the last time I saw it used. </p>
<p>Have seen an entire class get A's and B's and it was a perfect bell curve. Certainly not forced. The key is to make sure that the curriculum is rigorous and maintains a high standard. To do less than that is a disservice to the students. All A's in a course that teaches nothing will mean nothing in the end.</p>
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<p>As a curmudgeon, my curmudgeon flag is fine tuned and it recognizes curmudgeonery in all forms. Welcome to the club.</p>
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<p>The Academy is not looking to create one-dimensional officers so, yes, those who are reclused will probably, rightfully so, not be graded well by their peers. Remember, teamwork is one of the traits that Adm Fowler is attempting to reinstill. By breaking the rules of the Academy, I assume you mean clandestine spirit events. Yep, nonparticipation, I am sure, would be frowned upon. With that said, it would probably require addtional subperformance areas to receive a 'C'. Perhaps uniform and room inspections have also been deemed counterproductive to good study habits. As I have stated earlier, sounds like an 'attitude' issue to me.</p>
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<p>I have heard the same thing from parents, staff, and mids. The complaints from the Brigade, some of which have been posted on here, is that, since the recent parent inclusion, Sea Trials have become meaningless theatrics. I suppose the fact that some 70 year olds can compete lends credence to that fact. It will be interesting to see whether the mandated parent non-involvement in PPW PEP was the beginning of a trend to give the Academy back to the midshipmen.</p>
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All Navy2010 was trying to show was that even Presidents don't have to be the "star" that maybe we think they are. No body in the end will be judged on where they stood in the class. Just that they graduated.
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<p>Great. Now we've got mothers mothering mothers. :rolleyes: As she glibly noted, this was not her lone point.</p>
<p>We could not have grasped the complexities of all this in absence of a maternal interpretor. ;) </p>
<p>I think we knew well what was being offered up when the poster smugly chose to make her point by publicly denigrating the Commander In Chief. Disrespectful regardless of one's personal politics or opinion, in mine.</p>
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Remember, teamwork is one of the traits that Adm Fowler is attempting to re instill.
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<p>By this assessment are you suggesting that this was a trait that had been lost prior to the Supt's discovery? In the years prior to this when young men and women were working together on all those unnecessary teams, ECs and programs towards a common goal, victory on the field, for example, that teamwork was not a consideration or consequence? Given the current alternative conditions with Mids in their rooms 3 hours a night, how exactly will the notion of teamwork be further facilitated, above and beyond what it was before, that is before the Supt decided it was lacking or missing or had been lost? When Mids aren't on the sidelines shouting their support of their teams, and are denied the opportunity to be a physical part as in present during the success or failure of their team, I assume you feel this is a further indication of the success of their attempts to "in still" teamwork as well?</p>
<p>I haven't read anywhere that "teamwork" needed to improve. In both the Superintendent and Commandant's letters, they stated that there wasn't anything to correct and all changes were being made to get the Midn ready for war (in a nutshell that is). Yes...I guess teamwork will improve as they all suffer together, it will make them a more cohesive unit. Just like BUDS training except the Supe/Dant have substituted studying/formations for PT. Their call...their ship. We can discuss it and that's that and the Midn will follow orders just as they have been. I see the Midn at the Academy as a very positive force, some of you (and that' your opinion and right) see them more as less as the enemy that has to be dealt with sternly and harshly to set them right. If I am to believe Adm Fowler, there was nothing wrong to correct; otherwise if there were indeed corrections that needed to be made, what he wrote and stated were not entirely true statements. I will believe that the statements he made were indeed true and no corrections were needed to improve academics, teamwork, discipline, etc.</p>
<p>Launching spot four...</p>
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As a curmudgeon, my curmudgeon flag is fine tuned and it recognizes curmudgeonery in all forms. Welcome to the club.
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<p>curmudgeonery???? is that even a word???? (if it is, remind me not to get into a scrabble game with you! ;) )... please elaborate.... my dictonary is not helping me today!</p>
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I think we knew well what was being offered up when the poster smugly chose to make her point by publicly denigrating the Commander In Chief. Disrespectful regardless of one's personal politics or opinion, in mine.
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<p>here we go again Whistle Pig...... dissing on the moms!!! (frankly, I like your "whistle swine" monkier better......)</p>
<p>"personal politics" aside, nothing I could possibly post....smugly or otherwise.... incuding something "copied and pasted" from a public site, could possibly do any more harm or "publicly denigrate" this president.... he does a fine enough job all by his lonesome, let alone by many in his staff. But you pull the lever for whom you choose, and I will do the same. </p>
<p>In the meantime, do try your best and behave. </p>
<p>And if one "apology" for posting something that was, IMO, a bit "humor, (granted, a bit on the dark side....) finds you "less than humorous" today, then please accept a SECOND ONE. It was meant in JEST.... as captioned by "what are my chances......"</p>
<p>shhhhhhhhhhhhhhsh!</p>
<p>What about service assignments? What is this based on as far as who gets to chose first?</p>
<p>As I read the various responses, I decided to add my 2 cents worth. Having served over 28 years on active duty, and being a grad and dad, I would like to provide my perspective as to the various changes that have been implemented. First of all, I roger up that the Supe is in charge and can make the changes he feels are warranted for his command. However, I do disagree with the way they were implemented. When I reported to my first division officer tour, in charge of 25 personnel, I was advised by a smart Chief (are there any other kind), to look, listen and then act. He acknowledged that there were things that could be improved, but warned me not rush to implement changes, without understanding the real issues. He warned me that all changes come with consequences, both good and bad, and you need to know what to expect. Interestingly enough, when I assumed my first command of 700 personnel, I was given the same advice by an Admiral. I think it would have behooved the Supe to look, listen and then act after the Brigade had reformed, and to understand the consequences, good and bad, of the changes he wanted to make. I fail to understand how a decision to make meals mandatory was adequately discussed with the staff responsible for execution and have the type of problems that have occurred. This was just wrong and not a good example of thinking it through. As for the elimination of the ECAs and attendance at away football games, again I disagree with the Supe. Believe it or not the Service Academies do belong to the people of the United States. Unlike the local university, the Naval Academy recruits from through-out the country looking for the best and brightest. How do you attract these individuals? By advertising! This has always been done in the past through national exposure at football games, concert tours by the Glee Clubs and D&B; by exposure to Midshipmen on leave or liberty; etc. This is how you get the word out. The majority of the applicants do not come from San Diego and Norfolk, our major Fleet towns. They come from Zanesville, Ohio; Pittsburg, Pennsylvania; Taos, New Mexico; and every other region in the United States. We want the best and brightest to know about Navy. We want more than our fair share of these individuals. Why is it that the Blue Angels perform through-out the country; why does the Navy Band travel to perform; why do ships participate in various Fleet Weeks, the Portland Rose Festival and other PR activities away from Home Ports; why does the Navy sponsor a car in the NASCAR Busch series? Navy does it to advertise! We are competing with the Army, Marine Corps and Air Force for the same people, and we need to stay ahead of the game. The same thing is true for USNA applicants, we are in competition. One last comment about mandatory studying; it is a joke. If these are the best and brightest, I would think they are smart enough to know how to budget their time and requirements. They will not be more ready for the Fleet because someone told them when to study. They need to learn now about individual responsibilities, before they hit the Fleet when their actions and choices impact others up and down the Chain of Command. I am sure that others may not agree, but these are my opinions and I think educated ones. Last note, I heard that there were plenty of beef burgers at lunch on Wednesday, with an alternate choice of turkey. It is time to close off those discussions.</p>
<p>^^^^
dad/grad, I'm in total agreement with what you've said. You're right about mando studying being a joke too. Many use this time watching the cartoon channel, poking friends on facebook, computer games...</p>
<p>Grad/Dad - very good points. One of the disappointing things about all of this is that it appears that there was little input from the Brigade as to how to solve the perceived problems. While it was noted that the plan was to "listen, learn and lead" how much listening to the Brigade could be done during the time of the COC in June and the implementation of the changes at reform. My Mid actually spent most the summer on the Yard and did not see the Supe interacting with any of the Mids. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but I have my doubts as to how much input was collected from the Mids themselves. I have heard that many Mids were not happy with the lax enforcement of the rules. Perhaps it would have been better to enforce the rules in place as opposed to throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. </p>
<p>Now before I get chastised....I'm not saying that the Mids should be left to make all the decisions/rules, but surely their input would be valuable in the decision process. That's how you get "ownership" of proposed changes, especially ones that can be seen as unpopular.</p>
<p>Welcome grad/dad. I appreciate your perspective. :)</p>
<p>Service assignments are based on interviews, tests and Over All Order of Merit. Service Selection occurs in the late fall. Order of merit is used for who choses first. OOM includes academic grades, military performance, physical fitness and conduct grades. The OOM is used again in Feb/March? when Ships are selected, flight school dates chosen, TBS etc.</p>