Match Me - PA resident for English + History, PoliSci & Music. Classical vocalist spike. 3.6/33

Reading through this thread continues to concern me, and I’d like to kindly suggest that even trying to apply to that many reaches would likely be beyond overwhelming, and likely lead to more absences, etc. Plus, as others have noted, most schools on her list will expect more rigor in her schedule. (I 100% understand and agree with your/her strategy with her classes this year. I am just stating a fact.)

Couple that with the fact that she seems to be eliminating schools randomly and somewhat flippantly, and it feels like she probably isn’t approaching this in the best way. It’s hard to hear but if the GC isn’t going to be more helpful, then you are going to have to be more firm pointing her in the right direction.

My daughter also suffers from incredible social anxiety and ADHD. The school she attends sends multiple students to Ivys and elite LACs every year. Her initial list was very reach heavy, and after getting lots of great advice here (some of it hard to hear, but correct), we are in the process of coming up with a reasonable list. She will still apply to two or three reaches - I really hope only two - and they are schools that we have gone over with a fine-tooth comb to make sure that they are fit, more than architecture- and location-wise. The rest of her apps will be to schools that are a better fit and a much better likelihood of getting in.

I know that you are getting a lot of tough love, and it’s difficult to digest, but it is GREAT ADVICE.

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I appreciate this insight. She is not a fan of greek life. As in all things, there are sliding scales she will have to balance, where positives are examined in context next to other factors - she will have to closely explore what matters most to her. But what you are describing at Richmond (validated by external research I just did) likely makes it a non-starter for me. Fiske guide mentioned it being “social” and described greek life (making that a “sliding scale analysis” she’d have to engage herself with - prestige/recognition/academics v. social world). That that social space is toxic, however, I didn’t see elsewhere…thank you!

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Boston College
Holy Cross
Fairfield University
Fordham
Marquette University
St. John’s University (Queens, NY)

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There is a difference between academics and prestige.

I thought of St John’s in Annapolis, for intellectual, classics , music opportunities. But it is small, with 241 in its freshman class. Yet, in downtown Annapolis and easy to reach to DC, Baltimore, northern VA for internships or culture.

What about University of Cincinnati
(If you take a look, also has video tours of department and community.)

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I totally get that! My kids were anxious to go to a college where people cared more about the ethics bowl than the sugar bowl; more about debating the good life than joining greek life.

We pushed hard in two directions (a) there are those kids at any schools, it’s just a matter of proportionality and emphasis, so look closely and consider, is it a big enough sub-group that you’d be happy living in that sub-bubble in the school?; (b) a lot of the schools that you’ve heard of (many T20+) have a campus culture that is more focused on “success” than on academic inquiry.

To get at that second point, we did a few things:
(a) looked at the percentage of kids who went on for PhD’s as a proxy for thinking about general student levels of engagement with deep academic inquiry. Swarthmore provides a nice service, listing this out for several disciplines, by percentage: Doctorates Awarded :: Institutional Effectiveness, Research & Assessment :: Swarthmore College
If you want to look at the raw numbers, not as a percentage of students, this great website has the last 60 years of data; Baccalaureate origins of doctoral recipients (highereddatastories.com)
This data allowed us to learn that many schools that are relatively less “famous” might actually have more students that are like your daughter - truly interested in learning for its own sake - than some more well-known schools.

(b) A second thing we did to try to get at this question of “intellectual climate” was look at self-reported career services outcomes - if a school had a huge number going into finance/consulting, or med school, or etc., what does that say about student priorities and goals? Perhaps nothing … perhaps something relevant to your daughter.

Along with this, we pushed the idea of “hidden gems” - that schools that are relatively less well known avoid fame-seeking applicants who want to go there just b/c it is well known, rather than b/c of something it offers, and therefore might be easier to both get into, and to find your people at.

The book, “Excellent Sheep,” should be required reading for your daughter.

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I also would second St. Olaf, mentioned several times here (so I’m really thirding or fourthing :)). What a lovely, lovely school. It’s the one that got away for our family.

Also - Laurence in Wisconsin? core curriculum, cool freshman class that everyone takes (two semester, integrated human experience from history to philosophy to literature to art to music), and such a musical campus.

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I appreciate she seems flippant, but I actually understand her thought process and think she is just decisive and has a pretty strong sense of what she wants.

There has been much great advice provided, and again, came here to build the middle and bottom - to get ideas/suggestions/thoughts. So I appreciate them all. Spaghetti strategy is definitely ruling her “reach” thought process though - and an appreciation for statistics. We’re pretty organized, have a timeline of what is due where and when, and will have, for example, our art supplement done in time for a mid Oct submission in support of an ED application, which we will use elsewhere at lesser schools as our art supplement.

We will apply to a few Early Action schools next, and then (with some coaxing) do one of our target schools as ED2. We will then do the rest of our schools regular decision, including reaches. Trying to get her to agree to do a “good chance” school as ED2 versus a “tiny chance” school but it’s rough because she wants the 1/million shot at a Yale or Harvard where her music and focus on classic humanities makes her maybe 1000/million. Feels signficant to her, and I cannot tell her not to shoot the moon. I’m just trying to protect the downside.

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Thank you - great recommendations here that I look forward to exploring!

Check out the St Olaf requirements to see how well they match what she’s prepared. (For voice they’re typically one aria and one art song in a language other than English but it can vary). Music App due Nov 1 for best shot (rest of application can be submitted later). Music teacher rec is part of the application.
https://wp.stolaf.edu/musicadm/admissions-instructions/

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This is the first I’m reading about an interest in art. Do you mean a music recording?

Yale and Harvard (or any of the Ivies or Northwestern) do not offer ED2. So this may be a non-issue if those are what she wants for ED2.

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With Charleston, look into the Fellows program. My daughter is in it. Her college bff turned down Vandy, Rice, and Penn to attend.

With her desire for pedigree, this can help close the gap from what’s a ‘regular’ school.

And the classes - Honors and regular, are small so you get to know your profs - if you want to !!

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Based on your daughters’ reaction to Wesleyan and Oberlin, I think that Sarah Lawrence is probably not a good fit. I know students who have had a great experience at Sarah Lawrence and there is a lot to like about it intellectually and artistically. But if Wesleyan seems too non-traditional then I think SL probably will be a little too funky for her. I can see how access to NYC might seem preferable to access to Cleveland, but I also think of Sarah Lawrence as at least as “innovative” as Oberlin.

Finally, I know much less about admissions chances than many of the more veteran posters, but I actually think that the two C+s and B- might hurt her with some of the reaches more than the lack of calculus.

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We are trying to get her to realize the boost ED2 could provide, and trade the T20 long-shots for the increased admission chance ED2 can provide. To commit to a fit school (in theory) and give herself a better chance there, and still throw her Ivy apps in RD “just to see” - then if good fit school rejects her she’s still open to anything else that cuts her way through RD, including safeties. She has heretofore been unwilling to let go of the 1/million chance that she EDs somewhere and then gets in RD to a dream school. . . so wasn’t willing to ED anywhere before NW.

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I worry a lot about the absences, the mean girl issues - they WILL happen again and mom won’t be there.

You might want to keep her close.

College, especially the first year - is very difficult socially.

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My kid did some similar drive throughs at certain rural schools- didn’t even get out of the car. But we spent a week, twice, in Oberlin, driving from MA! We went to performances and saw so much support for them from the student body.

Oberlin has a “low wall” between college and conservatory and has a new Musical Studies major that gives college students access to conservatory resources and teachers.

I guess it’s a moot point !

(There has been a controversy in recent years about a bakery and race Oberlin College to pay $36.59M to bakery owners who claim they were falsely accused of racism | CNN ) We were there before it happened.

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Plus is Oberlin is too remote - schools like Bucknell and Elon should come off. Even Ithaca although there is plenty in town but it’s still in no where land.

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I have two kids involved in college level music. Can I suggest Lawrence, Ithaca, and University of Puget Sound.

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I know many student musicians at various musical levels who are attending Ivies, T20, state flagships, and non-flagship state colleges. If your daughter believes her musical achievements can boost her chance by this much, she must have a reason. Does she know other students with similar stats happily attending Yale, Harvard, Northwestern, JHU, CMU? I don’t know about PA but in Texas, the handful of student musicians I know who are currently attending top20 colleges were all members of all-state orchestra/band/choir or had state or national level awards, in addition to a top 5% GPA. As a high school teacher, I can’t recall any student attending top20 colleges without at least one state level award.
Northwestern does place high priority to ED applicants. You can get more direct information by talking to current students there. I have two former students currently attending, both happy, and both said it’s not the caring environment they were used to in high school (a private school). They are tough boys who can laugh off a lot of things others may feel bothered. Non-major students taking music lessons in Bienen don’t have the same access to facility as music-major students. Non-major students can audition to join an a cappella group there. There are many videos on Youtube where you can get an idea of their musical skill level.

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But check on opportunities offered to non-majors and/or non-BM students at schools like this that have conservatories on campus, at each school.

Here is Puget Sound Music | University of Puget Sound

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