I think it will help your D if YOU help her unwrap the difference between a campus culture and a particular philosophy/pedagogy which is department or major specific.
Trust me- if you asked a Wesleyan physics major to describe the teaching style- it would feel almost identical to that of any other challenging college which teaches physics.
I’m not pushing Wesleyan by any means- but even Harvard/Yale or whatever college she is using as a model for how she wants to learn- is going to have goofball professors (or professors pushing the envelope on pedagogy) and the best way to avoid them- is to avoid them. There isn’t a single college kid in America who doesn’t know how to use one of the online professor rating systems!
I think the overall social and campus environment is going to have a very meaningful impact on her day to day life and happiness. I think the presence of a handful of courses which use a methodology which she thinks is crazy- especially if she never takes a class in one of those departments- is going to have a trivial impact on her happiness.
Even students who intentionally want a core curriculum as a counter-balance to the “flavor du jour” style of learning often have criticisms on the classes in the core as being TOO traditional (a classic case of “be careful what you wish for”, right?)
I am pretty confident based on what you’ve written that she’ll find her way academically and intellectually. I think she’ll need your help parsing some of the social clues. That’s my takeaway.
I really think the above is true short of colleges that are non-traditional by design like perhaps Hampshire College. And I am not knocking non-traditional education modalities, but I understand why students want to avoid such classes. Particularly for people who struggle with anxiety, the uncertainty of an alternative or group based learning approach is probably doubly annoying. I just think that at all the colleges you mentioned in your original post, the typical humanities classroom will be traditional: a syllabus, lots of reading & discussion (or lectures), a couple of papers, a presentation or two, and maybe a midterm or final exam. A minority of professors might allow some sort of more creative option in some courses, but it is not the norm, and usually the students can choose whether they prefer to write an analytical paper or try the creative option.
We could make a very short list- College of the Atlantic, Hampshire, Evergreen, etc. which are designed for an alternative mode of learning. And another short list of the Great Books type colleges, and a somewhat longer list of sectarian religious colleges which have a very specific curriculum/orientation.
But other than those- the classroom experiences are going to be pretty similar IN SPECIFIC MAJORS. I’m not suggesting that a 12 person Latin seminar at Middlebury is similar to a 600 person psych lecture at U Michigan. But major by major- there isn’t going to be that many outliers once you’ve eliminated the above “exceptions” from the list.
The social variation can be enormous though…whether it’s dominated by a sorority/frat party scene, or whether EVERYONE does a sport even if it’s just a club team, or whether the prevailing aesthetic is “junior country club and we’re in training to become our parents”. Personally, I think that’s more concerning than a couple of odd-ball group projects in a course that’s easy to avoid…
The bigger the college, the easier it is to avoid a mono-culture. You don’t like swing dancing? There are thousands of other students and hundreds of other clubs. Smaller colleges-- more important to suss that out!
I’m not sure how she was able to pick up on the teaching methods of individual departments or professors in the space of a Wesleyan tour; there’s barely enough time to walk past all the buildings. In any event, life is short. She will have forgotten all about every college she didn’t apply to by this time next year.
I guess I’m kind of confused, because Wes sounded like this kind of place to me when we looked at it for my daughter. A school can be cutting edge in terms of content but still fairly conventional in terms of pedagogy. It’s definitely worth looking at course catalogs – I suspect that at most of the schools you’re considering, you’ll find a combination of more conventional and predictable course topics and more niche areas of study. I wonder if your daughter should look into Reed College? I don’t remember if there’s anything in this thread that would indicate that Reed is not a good fit (example: need-based aid only), but it sounds like the kind of atmosphere she might be looking for.
Oh my goodness no on Reed. Not for a socially anxious kid from Pennsylvania and way too far from home. Recipe for further anxiety and depression. Sorry. Also Reed’s student body presents as pretty weird despite the intellectualism. My sense is the OP’s daughter is more traditional than eclectic.
Well, far from home, maybe, but my take on Reed is that it’s pretty deeply intellectually rigorous. A huge percentage of their students end up in Ph. D. programs. If she’s looking for intellectual rigor, learning for the sake of learning, and not-isolated, it might be worth a look, at least.
If Wesleyan is too free-wheeling, the students at Reed will be beyond the pale. It’s an intense atmosphere and not particularly warm or supportive. (I’m a Wes alum and have been to visit Reed twice in the past 3 years, campus tours and info sessions, etc.) But we can agree to disagree.
Wes alum here, too. The OP’s anxiety episodes are the only reason I’m dwelling on the Wesleyan rejection. Wesleyan has an extraordinarily supportive student body and the university’s calibrated independent living arrangements would seem to be up her alley. But it’s not the only fish in the sea. I’m sure she’ll find her peep wherever she enrolls.
Kids make college decisions based on all kinds of misconceptions.
One thing I would ask her to consider is classes taught by the professor in its entirety (LAC’s for instance) versus star lecturers with TA’s teaching sections.
I have written this before: my son applied to Dartmouth because the tour guide had keys to the theater. At 18, my son loved keys.
Your daughter is getting impressions and making judgments that may or may not be valid and parents can decide what to discuss and what to let go. I didn’t mind the key focus since it seemed like a good choice for other reasons!
I very much appreciate the insights being provided - they are useful to a first time parent (me) in helping my daughter figure things out. To all who are concerned about the decision making criteria or matrix, I liken it to “Blink” - she knows what she knows, and she can analyze 1000 details in a second while deciding that. So for Wesleyan, for example, the campus felt disjointed and meandering without a clear “center” and felt off for her. She described it as a school she really wanted to like, but just couldn’t quite get there. I have come to appreciate that she is a traditionalist, with a slightly conservative bent (not politically but academically). She loves analyzing literature and poetry, and debating historical events and their antecedent effects, but doesn’t want to make a slideshow with pictures about it, nor dress up to “make it real.” She’s not a silly person, never was a silly child, though she has a good sense of adventure and fun. I think the vibe at Wesleyan felt very out there for her, and I have to respect her sense of who she wants to spend 4 years attending school with “becoming” the person she wants to be, and realize that while she may have seemingly ill-formed reasons, if she can’t “picture herself there” there’s probably a reason for that. Her anxiety tends to run to specific people and events - “have to but can’t” I call it…so getting behind in a class and not being able to focus in school could cause her to avoid school to stay home and work to catch up. She has done very well with online modalities, like her dual enrollment courses at a local college, and classes she loves more than she dislikes the students she is enrolled with. It’s having to be in class with people who stress her (frenemies from HS) that caused a lot of her anxiety the past few years, but maturity, therapy, and at this point, realizing that her college record is largely fixed, seem to be pretty freeing conceptually. She may never be someone who has perfect attendance in school, and she and I may need to have systems in place for her to make sure she’s asking for help when she needs it, but I genuinely believe she is going to thrive in college. The work of nurturing a very new and foundling growth mindset continues, as does the work of helping her find a way to structure her life in a way that is meaningful to her - that’s the whole ballgame from where I sit.
I have been reading through this thread and have a couple of thoughts for you. Your daughter is the one who will be spending the next four years of her life at her chosen college. It’s perfectly fine for her to rule out places for whatever reason. One of my kids nixed a school because it’s mascot “looked like it is on crack”, the other didn’t like a school because it was “too hilly”. Guess what? One kid found a school with a better mascot and the other found one with better topography. Not liking the location, the architecture or the general vibe of a school sounds pretty darned rational to me.
I have a kid at William and Mary, and based on your posts I think it could be a good fit for your daughter. I noticed you commented that you liked it a lot. What did your daughter think of it? It’s still a reach for her as an out of state student but might be worth considering ED 2 there.
It was the first official college visit we did, and I actually love it for her. She loves the St. Andrews programme and is seriously considering it, loved their honor code, and the tour took her through and into Wren, which she was agog at. Our tour guide was phenomenal, acknowledged weaknesses (housing units buildings looked like they needed, at a minimum, a coat of paint), but was so passionate about the many many strengths. They had a student wellness focus that I thought was incredibly prescient as well. They were building a new performance space, have a choir I think she’d enjoy, and seem to draw the type of “little ivy” people I think she wants to study with and be among. ps - when she was 6, we visited Colonial Willliamsburg - during a heat wave no less - and she was so infatuated with the historical buildings - the dressmaker’s shop in particular - that she opted to return for a free day (when everyone else wanted to return to Busch Garden). I am not superstitious, but I often feel like little tidbits like that make things familiar, and meant to be sometimes. That’s the school I want her to ED2 to…because I think it could boost her more than at other places. One thing I"m struggling with is that the school’s Naviance account describes it as a “Safety” but feedback I’ve received suggests it’s a reach. My daughter has a weighted 4.05 and ACT 31 composite 33 superscore, good ECs, and a potential music spike. She’s personable and should interview well. How does your daughter find the people and the social life at W&M? Does she know anything about the St. Andrews program? Do people doing it have a hard time socially reintegrating?
ED (1 or 2) would be a really good idea for William and Mary if your daughter likes it enough to commit. The overall acceptance rate really doesn’t really tell the whole story – it’s definitely a reach for OOS in the RD round.
It’s a better shot than NU, Yale, Tifts, Hopkins, etc.
I’d be surprised if she got in. But the ED could do it. It’s a much better chance than the reach schools and some match schools you listed.
Mine had better stats and rigor and was WL. She didn’t stay on the WL.
You mentioned b4 a relative will help pay. You should confirm. COA is $67k ahd you wouldn’t get a cent.
A cheaper, similar, much easier admit but larger school to W&M in my opinion is Miami Ohio. Even feels like it. The issue though would be - it’s within an hour to Cincy and Dayton but it’s rural.
But to be serious for a moment, your daughter does not seem destined to becoming a professional singer; her other interests are not exactly “spikey” or cutting edge. She seems like the sort of student who will eventually want to go to law school. I would question the decision to spend a lot of money on a private college education at this point when the demand for Shakespeare scholars is not high. She’s going to need that money for later.
I’m not sure what @arewethereyet.24’s comment about dressing up and making slide shows refers to, but I can assure you the folks dressed up in colonial garb in Williamsburg aren’t the William and Mary students.
It is actually my son who is a rising sophomore at William and Mary, so unfortunately I can’t really give you the female perspective. In general, I would say that the students are very intellectual, nerdy, quirky and very engaged both in and out of the classroom. The academics are rigorous and they study a lot, but it’s not a cut throat environment. They do not take themselves too seriously. They know how to have fun, but it is by no means a party school. There are certainly parties on the weekends, but it’s not a place where the students are out partying on a Tuesday night. Most of the social life revolves around campus organizations. There are 450 different clubs so it is pretty easy to find people who share similar interests.There is Greek life but it is not predominant, nor is it the stereotypical animal house environment.There is a very strong sense of community and a lot of school pride.
I don’t know a whole lot about the joint degree programme. From what I have heard, the students in the program become a very tight knit group. My son has one friend who will be starting her stint in Scotland this year.
As far as how to interpret the Naviance data, it’s certainly a good sign if your daughter falls in that upper right hand corner of the scattergram. But I can assure you W&M is not a safety school. Naviance only shows you the test scores and gpa of the accepted students. It doesn’t show you who was a recruited athlete or a legacy. You don’t know the courses those students took or what their extracurriculars are etc. Be cautious about reading too much into it.
Feel free to reach out if you have any other questions. You should absolutely have her do an interview. I have heard that can only help and a bad interview won’t hurt her.
Edited to add: I don’t believe there is early decision for the Joint Degree program. I think all decisions for that are released in the Spring. She should only apply ED if she would be happy spending all four years in Williamsburg.
