Math and MT -- Stats vs. Calculus

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>For the schools listed in the OP (Michigan, UCLA, NYU), admission to the MT program is based on:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Meeting the minimum academic requirements to be considered for an audition.</p></li>
<li><p>Meeting the artistic audition requirement.</p></li>
<li><p>Being selected from the pool of qualified applicants from 1 and 2 based on a largely subjective review of the audition results and whatever other considerations are weighted into the mix.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>You don’t need AP Calc to meet the minimum academic standards to be considered admission to the MT programs at any of these schools.</p>

<p>You better be really, really good in your artistic audition.</p>

<p>There is a POSSIBILITY that AP Calc vs. AP Stats would make a difference for final consideration, but the PROBABILITY that it will be an important factor is likely to be low, probably very low, for the schools listed, and, frankly, for the rest of the most popular 40-50 audition-based MT programs (Northwestern is not an audition-based program for admission, you audition after you get in). Taking the postulated choice in the OP of AP Stats as an alternative to AP Calc with likely a higher grade would probably lower any advantage to be gained from slugging your way through AP Calc to almost nil, especially if that would result in a lower grade, for the 40-50 most popular audition-based MT programs.</p>

<p>I doubt very seriously that many students were good enough artistically to get into the MT programs at NYU, Michigan, or UCLA, but lost out on admission because they took AP Stats instead of AP Calc. AP Stats would seem to be a better life skills choice for someone pursuing a career in the arts - you don’t use calculus to generate a P&L, but it really helps to be able to understand statistically based extrapolation, trend analysis, and data mining to stay afloat in the theatre business.</p>

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<p>MT S with 3 on AP Calc (had 4s and 5s on English/Latin/History-related exams - subjects S actually liked) passed prescreen at Michigan - therefor must have met the school’s basic entrance requirements, and was also invited for audition at CMU (a 3 would have absolutely NO value for college credit at EITHER of these schools). I’m not sure pressing him to take AP Calc was worth it - except that PA school does not offer Stats and getting him to do it online would have been like pulling teeth. Only value that I can see from taking the AP Calc was for the GPA/Class Rank “inflation” referenced above (he had enough math credits from Algebra and Geometry in 7th and 8th grade) and “stretching” him outside of his comfort zone, but AP Music Theory would have been WAY more valuable (PERFORMING Arts HS didn’t offer that either, go figure). Or maybe some kind of REAL “Math/Economics for Entrepreneurs” - which is what these kids are really going to be when they get out of college.</p>

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<p>@halflokum - since S’s school did not offer APs that would have shown on his school info sent to colleges- you won’t be “dinged” by any university if your school doesn’t off particular classes. </p>

<p>Colleges like APs b/c the HS has to certify their curriculum with the college board- therefore, like SAT/ACT, universities have a more uniform measure of what that class entails, and can compare a student apples to apples based on their score more than their grade in the class.</p>

<p>I teach AP classes, and I teach to the test every day. Let me explain what I mean by that. My subject tests (AP US history, AP European History, AP World History) base your score on 80 MC questions and 3 essays. Well there is NO way to predict what the 80 questions will be about (especially in AP world where it can come from ANYTHING in human history)… so we don’t spend a ton of time there. We work the writing. “Analyze, Compare/Contrast, Assess the Validity, Describe Continuity and Change over time” this is the bread and butter of my kids’ work. EVERY day we dissect an previous test essay topic in small or large group. EVERY week the kids write a full essay (and yes, I spend about 6 hours a week grading essays). By the time we are done in class- my kids have answered virtually every essay prompt the college board has asked since 1999- and they CRUSH the essay section of the test. </p>

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<p>Picking up on halflokum’s recent posts…</p>

<p>My kids attended a rural public high school. At the time they attended, there was only one or two AP classes offered…AP Calculus and AP Physics (or maybe it was just AP Calculus…which is what my girls took). The most rigorous courses in our high school were designated “Honors” and there was no AP exam for these. Since my girls graduated, I think some of the senior Honors courses are now AP. Anyway, as “too wonderful” states, colleges won’t frown upon a kid who hasn’t taken AP classes if their HS doesn’t offer them. </p>

<p>Anyway, it is MY opinion that my kids’ rigorous Honors classes in some ways may have prepared them for college better than SOME AP classes, particularly the ones that teach to the test. In my kids’ English and History classes (which in junior and senior Honors classes were integrated subjects) used primary sources and not text books. My kids did a LOT of writing in our high school in all their Honors classes. In fact, in the Honors Freshman English class, older D was required to write a 5 page essay DAILY and younger D had to write a 3 page essay DAILY, on top of many more major papers. I recall that the marking period exam which they had 48 hours to complete required TEN ESSAYS! The kids had to do a lot of analysis, critical thinking and writing in their Honors classes. </p>

<p>When my girls got to college, one attended Brown (for undergrad) and one went to NYU/Tisch, both quite academically selective schools, they were well prepared. In fact, I recall in a freshman Tisch writing class, the professor said my D’s paper was the best in class. In a class at Brown, the professor held up my D’s paper to the class as exemplary. I don’t say this to brag. My point is that many parents on CC would likely not consider sending their kids to the kind of high school my kids went to. Yet, while their school had many faults, it prepared them very well for very selective colleges (to be admitted) but also for succeeding at those colleges. They were already used to reading primary sources and having to write papers. And this was without any courses that had an AP designation except their Calculus course (each took that as juniors in HS). Also, while our HS did not have AP in a foreign language, my D took a placement exam at Brown as she wanted to continue in French, and placed out of several levels in college. Also, D2 who went for a BFA in MT, never had Music Theory at our high school. She learned a lot of music theory just through her private piano lessons. When she got to Tisch, she took a placement exam and placed out of the two years of Music Theory required in the MT program. So, one can be challenged and well prepared in high school, without official AP courses. </p>

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<p>Is AP always associated with rigor on schools that offer AP classes? Is there such a thing as the non-AP class being just as rigorous but not structured to prepare for the test? </p>

<p>My kids both attended rigorous (private) high schools. My daughter’s former HS in particular is famous for its rigor (and selectivity in terms of who they admit) and regularly has about 40 some odd National Merit Finalists out of a class of 120 and a bunch more commended etc. They do offer some honors classes (for the academically insane if you ask me) but overall their regular curriculum is outstanding and extremely rigorous. In fact they only recently started calling some classes “honors.” Prior to that I think they used the word accelerated. Even in that select population they will not crush the AP tests without additional preparation. Their curriculum is not geared to the tests and there are things on those tests that these students were never taught while meanwhile covering a rich variety of other aspects of the subject matter.</p>

<p>So it makes me wonder whether or not a student might deliberately not take an AP class because they like the content of the non-AP version. Is there such a thing as looking at it like that and if so, why should a student be penalized for that when it comes to admissions? In the end, all the 4 or 5 on the AP gets you is possibly a way out of certain college level classes. Why would a school be in a rush to place you out of a class that they’d be happy to have you pay for or happy to own the foundation of your work in? </p>

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<p>@halflokum - Colleges aren’t actually huge fans of kids taking AP as a “way out” of college classes. That is why at many selective schools AP credits will place you in an advanced level (say a 201 rather than 101) but NOT change the # of required classes…after all, college is a business, and their business model would not include a student having to pay for fewer classes… This is true at NYU as well. I printed the page in the Tisch handbook you sent me, and MANY of D’s AP credits will NOT remove her for a class. Things like AP Literature, AP Music Theory and AP Government are marked “No course equivalent” meaning they will not reduce the number of Liberal Arts credits she needs to take. There is an old joke about Ivies- that you can’t get in without X number of AP credits (in many subjects, and again, only if your school offers them) and once you are there none of them count (Correct me if I am wrong, but the Ivies we investigated offered no credit for APs, not even 5s)</p>

<p>So why do colleges make a big deal of taking APs? Again b/c of standardization. Every student who submits an AP score took the same test- apples to apples. Absolutely there can be “regular” classes that are harder than AP- that all depends on the teacher. Going back to an earlier point- in my experience, colleges care more about your score on the AP test than your grade in the class. A person who got a C in class and 5 on the exam is more impressive than and A in the class and a 1 on the exam.</p>

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<p>@toowonderful what you say about standardization makes sense. On the other hand, aren’t more and more very select colleges providing test optional admissions and moving away from relying on standardized test scores? </p>

<p>I also don’t remember my daughter ever even submitting her AP tests scores with her admission documents. In fact I know she didn’t. Where would one even do that? And aren’t those tests held in the month of May which if you are taking something senior year would be too late?</p>

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<p>We only submitted AP scores to the final choice school, as I recall. But my boys were in AP classes from Sophomore year on, so the course and grade showed on the transcript. And I definitely remember repeated emphasis by their counselors on “availing yourself of the most rigorous options offered at your school to be most competitive at the most selective schools…Blah Blah Blah” – so the boys took that route, as did most of their peers. I’m not sure all the extra pressure is healthy and kind of agree with all the points in the “Race To Nowhere” documentary. However, we weren’t brave enough to be mavericks, I guess. </p>

<p>A note regarding AP Music Theory. Even if your school doesn’t offer the class, they can absolutely order the test for any AP subject. My boys were advanced Certificate of Merit pianists and had taken quite a lot of music theory outside of school through our State Music Teachers Association, so we requested the AP Music Theory test and the school happily complied, even though the course wasn’t offered. (Of course, we paid the test fee, etc. The boys even had an advanced drummer from the marching band join them for the test.) They did no real prep other than reviewing some sample tests from a book I got from Amazon , and both my boys passed, one with a 5; the drummer passed too. And both my boys passed out of music theory requirements at their schools (not via AP, but via placement tests on campus). So for those of you with advanced musicians, don’t be afraid to ask your school if they will get the AP Music Theory test for your child. </p>

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<p>@Halfolkum - Whether or not they “scored” on tests up to Junior year is on the profile at the school where I teach, and at D’s school- not sure for others. You are correct that senior scores aren’t known until well after universities have finished admissions. There are seniors at my school who have a bad habit of taking a bunch of AP classes to show rigor their senior year and then blowing off tests - literally not filling in answers. Always been a mystery to me- if you’ve done the work in class why not at least TRY on the test, you have to sit there for the full 3 hours anyway. Doesn’t tend to impact me- most of my kids are sophomores and juniors, AP Macro is what my kids would take as seniors.</p>

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<p>@toowonderful, interesting. Clearly a world I know little if anything about. I have no idea if my daughter’s scores from APs junior spring are included on her transcript. I don’t recall ever seeing it but in any event any test she did senior year wouldn’t have mattered for admissions. Of course like you, we discovered at NYU the only one that had any relevance to her was her Calc AP which placed her out of a math/science distribution requirement. Other than that, there was no point of her ever having taken the other two tests she took but of course she took them before she even knew where she was going to school and then I think one more the spring of senior year. Maybe that was the calculus. I bet it was because she would have known that test would matter for her at NYU and otherwise had no incentive whatsoever to take it.</p>

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<p>APs are an interesting bunch. I enjoy the ones I teach b/c I like those topics (especially European History- my husband says I am a Brit who happens to have been born in America) and I like working with upper level students. I would be equally happy teaching the same students the same topics without “the test” at the end…although I have to admit the test is a motivating factor- it keeps kids working. AP curriculum are in the process of shifting to increase the focus on critical thinking rather than memorization. US History is the start of this wave in Social studies, as of next year there will be fewer MC questions, and a large % of them will focus on inference from primary source documents rather than specific facts. My classes had the opportunity to do a pilot test from the college board- they really liked the new style of questions- they felt that it allowed them to “use their noodle” (something I say a lot in class) rather than have to guess.</p>

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<p>toowonderful, kudos to you! As a teacher myself, I know how much work you put into these classes, and you must be very skilled indeed to get those good scores from your kids and to be assigned all those AP classes to begin with! :slight_smile: </p>

<p>I myself am dual certified in English and Special Ed and lately have preferred to concentrate on self-contained Special Needs kids, but a few years back I taught AP Language and Comp. (I have my MFA and have taught college as well! Yes, Jack of all trades and master of none…) </p>

<p>Anyway, to the AP questions and to add to toowonderful’s wise advice: First, you don’t have to send your AP scores to any college should you choose not to. If the score is good (4 or 5, sometimes 3), you should report the score yourself, on your resume when you send in your application. Also, if you’ve done very well, you will be awarded as an AP Scholar of one form or other, and this you can report on your resume as well. But the college will require official documentation later on, and this you have to pay for. In our case, we waited to send the official documentation until after my kids chose the college, since it costs money. You can choose which scores to send in. If you got a 5 in English and History but a 2 in Musical Theory, just send in English and History. You would send in official scores if a) your college offers credit and/or b) your college allows you to skip a required class based on the score. The more ‘elite’ colleges will not give you credit anymore no matter how high your score, or only if the score is a 5 :frowning: But they will allow you to skip a class. Many colleges, however, give you the credit.</p>

<p>It is always good to have good stats & it is always good to take as rigorous classes as you can manage. But this is <em>very</em> individual. Plus, each high school is different. Some high schools offer AP classes that are not really AP and/or that are poorly taught. I have seen AP classes in which nobody gets a 4 or 5, and most kids get a 1. In that case, as toowonderful says, don’t send the score! :slight_smile: I have also seen honors classes be more rigorous or as rigorous as AP classes. However, as toowonderful says, AP classes teach to the test, so you are more prepared for the actual test if you have an excellent AP teacher.</p>

<p>But you can choose to take any AP test you want if you pay for it. You don’t have to take the class. I myself, long ago, took the AP English test although my school didn’t have that class. This is something to consider if your child is a good self learner and the school has limited options. Another approach is to take college courses. Many high schools offer this nowadays, either online or physically. Colleges like college courses, in my experience, even community college ones, because they are more similar to the actual college experience, requiring more independent work, and also because they have a better sense how rigorous the classes are. </p>

<p>But ultimately, it’s about the student and what they can handle. It’s always a balance between sanity and rigor and ability! </p>

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<p>^^^ Yes, there are other ways to challenge yourself, even if your school doesn’t offer AP (ours barely did). My kids accelerated a bunch in school. Our middle school was attached to the high school and so they were able to go into the high school for classes in middle school (example, my MT kid took Creative Writing and a Shakespeare English class with high school seniors while in middle school). As well, they did a lot of independent studies in order to accelerate…supervised by school faculty. They both did this in French and in Math for instance (example, in 7th grade both did Algebra as independent studies and in 8th grade, both did Geometry as independent studies, and in some years, same in French, or else went into the HS for French). My MT kid did AP Calculus as an Independent Study in Junior year as she could not fit it into her schedule to take it with the seniors. One of my kids did independent studies in social studies in order to delve deeper and be more challenged. Also, when exceeding the offerings of our high school, one daughter in senior year did French VI as an independent study with one other student under the supervision of a teacher. She also took 2nd year Calculus (Calculus BC) and took the BC AP test, by taking it long distance through Johns Hopkins CTY during the school day. My MT kid took College Level Essay Writing as an 8th grader through Johns Hopkins CTY long distance and allocated a period in her school day for it. </p>

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<p>Phew I’m exhausted reading all of that :slight_smile: @soozieVT, you are describing choices made by your kids to enrich their education, probably because what they had in school wasn’t enough for them. I assume they didn’t make those choices, especially so early on, with an eye towards looking better on a college application. As @connections said in her last paragraph above, it is ultimately about the student and what they can handle. Going all the way back to the OP’s question, if you get through precalc (which looks like her daughter will do this fall as a junior regardless) and you still feel like you don’t want to or can’t handle AP calc, you have your answer. Many students never get to calculus of any flavor in high school and take it in college if they pick a major path that requires it. That will not be MT.</p>

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<p>@connections- thanks for the kudos- all in a day’s work ( and these days are happy days- my school ended on Friday- summertime!!) Today the college board requires all AP teachers to submit their curriculum and have it approved before your school is allowed to call a class “AP”- but they still can’t control what happens in the room, and like all things, there will be challenging classes and not so challenging ones- no matter what they call themselves. For those of you with junior kids- you may want to check if your HS transcript reports scores. As connections said- you have to submit scores “officially” to get the actual credit- but many schools report scores on transcript. (Mine does, and D’s did too)</p>

<p>Yet another option are online AP offerings. Have to admit I am NOT a superfan of these- and students need to be STRONGLY self motivated in order to be successful. But it’s another choice. I have a student at my school who wanted to take AP art history- and we don’t offer it- so she took it online, had a period she was assigned to library where she could work etc. It’s another option</p>

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<p>halflokum, I can assure you that these curricular choices were never with college admissions in mind!!! In the very early years, we had to have accommodations made for our daughters in school to meet their learning needs. Luckily, our elementary school was very into doing that. For one thing, they allowed my younger D an early entrance into Kindergarten, which she really needed to do. Also my younger one (the MT daughter) was allowed to do some independent studies when in elementary school, such as instead of taking spelling classes when the whole school did that, she wrote musicals/scripts under the supervision of the principal (and look, now she is writing musicals and earning money doing it!) Another time in elementary school, she did a very in depth independent study on Disney and it is rather funny but now as a young adult, she has been commissioned to write music for Disney. I can think of a lengthy report she wrote at age 11 in elementary school about a well known MT playwright/composer, and ironically she just won a national award named after him and when presented the award and having to give a speech in NYC recently, she held up the report she was allowed to write back in elementary school on this person! Thank you goes out to our wonderful elementary school. </p>

<p>But once my kids were in middle school and going forward, they themselves sought out accommodations to meet their learning needs. They were NOT satisfied unless sufficiently challenged. It took a great deal of advocating on their part, and as parents, we were also involved to assist with this at school, along with a fabulous guidance counselor who also advocated. College admissions never came up in any of these planning sessions. It was solely about meeting their learning needs. So, there was a lot of acceleration and taking classes or independent studies at higher grade levels, long distance college level courses, and so on. In fact, when younger D was in tenth grade, she begged us to let her graduate high school after junior year. It turned out she had enough credits already to do that and had almost topped out in what our HS offered (she had many non-academic reasons for this decision as well, but I am only talking the academic piece on this thread). And because of all the acceleration and so on, she did have enough credits to graduate and also went all the way through AP Calculus and French V by junior year, and had enough English credits because she had gone into the high school as a middle school student taking some English credits simply to be challenged sufficiently, and none of that was with early graduation in mind. But because of that, she was able to graduate early. That just never was the plan or reason for all the academic accommodations (in fact, her older sister had just as many curricular accommodations in middle and high school but did not opt to graduate early). </p>

<p>My kids went to a rural public high school, where honestly, there is not a rat race or heavy emphasis on the whole college admission stuff. What they took for coursework in school K-12 was purely about meeting their learning needs, interests, and desires to be challenged. They would have done the very same things had they never planned to go to college. </p>

<p>While sometimes kids want school to be easy, my kids never liked classes that were too easy. I think the course D liked the least at NYU/Tisch was a course in the History of Musical Theater. Her reason was she learned nothing new and had a very good understanding of the History of MT already, having studied it her entire life out of interest, starting with an in depth independent study at age 7, that her teacher let her do on 100 Years of Broadway. In a similar vein, I will never forget in seventh grade (our middle school is grades 7/8), my older daughter crying that French I was way too easy and boring because they were working on the French ABCs and she could already read and write in French (our elementary school taught French for all grades) and when we talked to the MS French teacher, she said our D should kick her heels up in class and take it easy and be happy she has one easy class every day. What? My kid did not want to relax and be happy that she had a gut class. She wanted to work at the right level. Thankfully, we were able to get the girls accelerated in French. But that is an example of ways to challenge oneself, even if you have to create accommodations to make it happen. Our school system did not have Gifted and Talented programs. Our HS did not have much in the way of AP and so on. </p>

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<p>toowonderful, very interesting—I’ve never heard of AP scores reported on high school transcripts! None of the schools I’m familiar with does this. Can you choose which scores you want reported? Say you got a 1. Would this then be automatically reported on the high school transcript? That would seem to be a potential big negative and would impede students from risking taking the test. Or do you select the ones reported on the transcript? So cool how different regions and schools do things differently.</p>

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<p>Yeah, every school does things differently. I would be against having SAT or AP scores on a transcript. Now there is Score Choice with the SATs and so given that, it defeats the purpose if the transcript shows ALL the test scores. Same with AP scores. </p>

<p>Back when my kids were applying to college, there was not Score Choice and so colleges would see all your scores. I have a recollection that we had asked to have my kids SAT scores from MIDDLE SCHOOL (taken for the Johns Hopkins Talent Search) taken off the transcript. While these were fine scores for a middle schooler (and the kids ended up winning awards in the JHU Talent Search), we would not want colleges to see such scores as they may not notice how young the kids were when they took them. Their scores in 10th and 11th grades were much higher. </p>

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<p>@connections - It may be a state thing, all states set their own criteria for what a transcript reports. Or it could just be my local area, I’ve only ever seen transcripts from 3 or 4 high schools.</p>

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<p>Because one of the schools my kids attended also reported ACT scores, I never indicated their high schools when registering for the test. I always register them as home schoolers. Then, after my kids are finished with all attempts at taking the test (end of junior year) I choose the highest score and have it sent to the high school to be included on the transcript. You will have to pay for the score to be sent, but don’t risk having the school send colleges the lower score. My kids also began taking the ACT through the Talent Search programs in 6th grade, and took it every year thereafter. We certainly did not want colleges to confuse a middle school score with a high school score.</p>