This question is about my Profoundly gifted son.
My son has great resume (math Olympiad winning and HMMT winning). I don’t want to give out more information for anonymity.
He has potential to get into UPENN (much much higher chance) and Princeton (Higher chance). He wants to study pure math and minor in computer science. Not interested in engineering. Upenn allows you to do graduate class and get graduate degree (MS) while doing undergraduate(sub-matriculation). Princeton does not allow sub-matriculation. Princeton is #1 in math and Upenn is #16 in math. BTW son does not care if he goes to PENN or Princeton. He wants to take graduate classes because he wants to be challenged.
Princeton. He’ll learn from the best mathematicians in the world and he’ll be able to take graduate classes if he wants. MS is useless for math research, and PhD tracks are funded. This is assuming he wants to do research - if he wants to work on Wall Street, for example, it’ll be a different story…
While students can submatriculate at Penn, very few ultimately do, so I would not use submatriculation as a parameter. And that’s before discussing whether a terminal master’s is necessary. He will, if accepted, have the opportunity to take graduate classes at Princeton.
Of course, if he only gets into one, the question is moot, and either is a fine option.
I would take the time between now and ED deadline to investigate the potential for the overall undergraduate experiences on both campuses. Visit the departments, meet with professors, go to classes and have lunch with students. Look at the interdisciplinary options and think about the next steps and interests after undergraduate school. Opportunities to TA if a PHD is a consideration, industry and federal partnerships. The math departments’ teaching styles may be very different. Also consider the social experiences. The school’s cultures and living environments are very different. It’s hard to compare eating clubs in a suburban environment to the gritt of Philly with all the amenities affordable to college students. The schools are athletic rivals but their cultures are very different. I also assume their academic environments are different.
Have 2 at Penn, like you I can’t share too much. Even though their major departments are not ranked first among the schools they considered, the interdisciplinary focus, classes with hands on application, summer internships off campus and research jobs on campus are opening the world for them. I would encourage your son to look at the whole picture and attend where he finds the best fit.
In any case, if he does well while studying for a BS/BA in math, he can get admitted to a funded PhD program in math, so you need not worry about significant cost for PhD study after a BS/BA in math.
Be sure that he has affordable schools that are safeties for admission. There are also some state universities in the “math ranking neighborhood” of Penn that are significantly less selective (not necessarily safety, but probably significantly more likely than Penn for many applicants) and less expensive (even for out-of-state students).
If your son is a Math whiz and is a competitive applicant, then he should apply based on fit. After graduation, he would begin a fully funded PhD program (no need for a MS). In case, he changes his mind later, he will have similar career opportunities at Princeton or Penn.
Above advice is spot-on, to visit and meet the Profs and students, sit in classes before he makes the decision. The environment is quite different and he may like one more than the other.
If the student is as advanced in math as other posts suggest, a math department with good faculty representation in the subareas of interest, or a wide range of subareas if the student is undecided, would be desirable. This is part of (academic) “fit” that rankings may not incorporate, and needs to be investigated individually for each school’s math department. If the student’s interests are in applied math, other departments (e.g. computer science, statistics, economics, industrial engineering, physics, etc.) may also be worth investigating for course offerings and faculty interests.
As far as sitting in classes goes, upper level math courses can be significantly different from lower level math courses (that a very advanced student is likely to bypass many of) which are often large service courses for students in many other majors.
Thanks for the advise.
We are applying to two state colleges as backup. Just in case. … If he gets into an Ivy, we will pay for it. His sibling is in ivy. I don’t want him to feel that I did not want to pay for his education.
Be sure that the backups are academically and otherwise suitable – pay as much attention to investigating their math departments as you do with the reach colleges, since most applicants do not get into their reaches. Too many students’ backups are throw-ins that they never expect to attend, leading to huge disappointment when those are the only colleges they get into – a disappointment that could have been avoided by doing the research beforehand to have backups that the student genuinely likes.
We are going to apply Penn state and UNIV of maryland as the backup. Son already takes math at UPENN for last 2 years as a high school student (Young Scholar program). He knows the department well. He is very comfortable. He has taken 400 series math classes and gotten A+ grade without sweating much. Son is not into money (no wall street). Service oriented. He just turned 16 yrs old (skipped grade).
If he becomes a high school teacher/lecturer, is master needed ? I want to keep all options open. Profoundly gifted children are different and their thought process is different. I want to have all options open.
BTW, He drops classes if it is too easy even if he can get easy “A”.
High school teaching typically requires a subject matter degree (e.g. math degree for a math teacher) plus whatever teacher credential requirements or courses are needed in the region for teachers.
Additional backup schools in your region worth evaluating for math include Rutgers and Stony Brook.
For math, Princeton far outclasses UPenn. It’s much better place for a potential math prodigy. It has a better program, more experience and more resources nurturing math talents. MS in math doesn’t really mean much other than in a few applied fields. The only other downside is that your son likely won’t get credits for the UPenn courses he’s already taken, but it shouldn’t matter unless he wants to graduate sooner.
First, congrats. This is a very high class problem.
Second, he may not get into one and the issue may solve itself.
Third, Penn does have a good number of submats. D1 did it in CS in SEAs and still finished in four years.
I would consider the social environment. They are quite different and many students prefer one or the other. College is much more that academics.
Fourth, mine won’t take an easy class either. She prioritizes challenge over grades. If she is the smartest kid in a class, she wants out. She has to be challenged. She still gets mostly A’s, but it is because of her learning capacity. This is a different type of student than most even at the Ivies, and needs to be managed differently. I would investigate how each school would place him so that he is challenged appropriately. If they make him retake courses he doesn’t need to retake, he will hate it. If he is already 400 level at Penn, he is quite advanced.
Also, at Penn it is encouraged to explore related fields, if he is interested, perhaps probability, statistics, or CS. Students advanced in math can take intro to probability that is all calc based. Discrete math is taught out of the CS department and is quite different from most other math. Also some science courses are very mathematical, such as the calc based astronomy.
I’d agree with Princeton. (Though almost everyone at the AMO awards ceremony last year was headed to MIT - no interest there?)
If he’s an IMO winner then he should chat with Po-Shen, who was an IMO medalist and got a degree from Princeton. I’ve always found him quite open to discussions about my D’s education options.
Son was very comfortable with Penn math department and knows professors. He felt that he will thrive in this environment. He did not care about the math ranking. He was in Princeton for a math summer program. He was not into it.
Son applied early decision to Penn. He got accepted.