Math curriculum question for college prep

Parents Forum
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<p>Definitely find out what the sequence of math is being offered at the high school. You want to know if there is 4 yrs of math offered at our high school</p>

<p>Both sons took math accelerated route.<br>
7 alg 1
8 geometry
9 Alg 2
10 pre-cals</p>

<p>One son took calc bc in 11th grade and ap state in 12. Problem with that is ap stat is just too easy. So you head into college not having done calculus for a year. </p>

<p>Administration pushed many kids into the accelerated math, but then didnt want to offer a new calculus course for the seniors. To solve this problem, they only offer calculus AB in 11 and calculus BC in 12. You cannot take just the one year of calc bc. (somehow these advanced strong students in 7th grade suddenly become to stupid to take calculus in one year - sheesh)</p>

<p>One more thing to check in high school is what math they need to take with certain science courses. You may need to be taking calculus to take certain course like physics.</p>

22

<p>My oldest DS did an advanced math track and ended up doing both AP Statistics and AP Calc before he graduated this year. They do AP stats in 10th grade though instead of 12th. When my oldest did it didn’t go on his transcript. However, they just changed the rule and my youngest is on the same track and his 8th grade math and Spanish grades will be on his high school transcript because they are high school classes. I would really make sure she is ready for the class. It’s not worth it if she can’t get a A in the class. My Middle son is not on the same track so he will have AP calc but not AP stats and I think that will be good enough for a non math kid.</p>

23

<p>In our system only a tiny handful of really strong math students start algebra in 7th grade. My oldest was one of them - he’s been a comp sci nerd since he was seven and had been accelerated in math even in elementary school. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the school do algebra in 8th, which puts them on track for an AP Calc course as seniors. I think that’s good enough for most students, even ones planning to go on in math or science.</p>

<p>I think MDMom’s sequence is unusual and probably a result of accelerating too many kids who weren’t ready to be accelerated in 7th grade.</p>

24

<p>Thanks to all for your feedback! This is very helpful and gives me a lot to think about.</p>

<p>I have a little time to decide; I’m leaning towards “keeping her back” and having her start Algebra in 8th grade as opposed to 7th. Although she has always done very well in math, she is not a math whiz. Since this will count towards her high school GPA, I don’t want to her to start her high school GPA on a bad note if she doesn’t get an A. If it were anything other than math, I wouldn’t hesistate. Also, I don’t want this to stress her out or burn her out in 7th grade. There is a long road ahead and plenty of time for stress…LOL </p>

<p>At the suggestion of some of you here, I checked our high school curriculum, and they pretty much have everything, including AP Calc (both AB and BC) and AP Stats. The prerequisite for Honors Physics is Algebra 2, and the prerequisite for AP Physics is Pre-Calculus or Calculus. So she should be okay there. She can take Physics in senior year if she chooses.</p>

25

<p>What does she want to do? Perhaps let it be her decision, since it is not exactly a clear-cut choice from where you can see it.</p>

<p>Remember that there is a general tendency to underrate girls’ abilities to handle math, and that even excellent in math students can find someone better than they are in math.</p>

26

<p>The other thing to check is the quality of the teachers. They make such a difference in middle school.</p>

27

<p>I took Algebra over the summer as a going-into 8th grader so that I could take Geometry as an 8th grader. I remember thinking it was difficult but I learned the info fine and didn’t have any particular difficulties staying on that track (took BC Calc as a HS junior and Multivariable Calc as a senior). I really agree with ucbalumnus that “not a whiz” in math doesn’t mean that this track is too hard. I am “not a whiz” in math, either–I didn’t get all As in my high school classes, and I basically got all Bs in my college math classes. I stuck it out for a math major, though, did well enough not to be ashamed of my grades, and am becoming a high school math teacher. If I have to compare myself to people getting PhDs in pure math, it is easy to be depressed–I don’t really have that aptitude. But I love math, and I have more than enough math skills to be a good math teacher (hopefully I have, and can develop, the teaching skills as well!). I do have a regret with how I managed my math coursework, but it pertains to my college courses, not the track I took in secondary school. </p>

<p>On the other hand, it may truly be that your D is better off waiting until 8th grade for Algebra. Many students from my high school who went on to earn engineering, computer science, and natural science degrees from excellent universities did just that. I know people currently in math PhD programs who did as well. I think letting your D guide the decision would be prudent. I REALLY wanted to go forward a year. If she does too, then great. If not, also fine. One advantage of trying Algebra now is that it is usually (much) easier to drop back than it is to accelerate outside of the school’s timeframe.</p>

28

<p>Personally, I skipped 2.5 years of math, took algebra I and II in middle school in a closet with 2 other kids, took geometry in 8th, then precalc & trig, then Calc BC, then multivariable and statistics at a college, and then had nothing left for 12th grade - so I ended up being a TA for the brand new multivariable class at my high school. I think that experience was valuable to me as a student and it probably enhanced my college applications as well.</p>

<p>That said, I was always exceptionally talented at math and it came very easily to me. I wouldn’t recommend overloading your DD if she doesn’t want to head down that accelerated path. But it is really only possible to get ahead right now, in middle school, because the tracking system for HS math is so set in stone at most schools.</p>

29

<p>Good question, ucbalumnus. I think at this point she is content to continue on to algebra in 7th b/c that’s where most of her little pre-AP group will probably be going. I’m not sure she realizes what it will be like, altough she is aware that one of her friend’s older brothers did struggle and ended up having to get a tutor. I need to talk to her and see if she has a strong opinion one way or the other.</p>

30

<p>My daughter followed the 2 year advanced that Ucb. described, except that in grade 12 she took AP Stats as she was advised for a major in marine bio. If you believe that she is on the AP track, I would let her start Algebra in 7th grade. Sometimes schedules at the HS follow the track set up in MS and it might be difficult to take some math courses because of schedule conflicts with the advanced science course labs.</p>

31

<p>A lot of this depends on the students, I don’t think you should push a student too hard nor should you hold her back.
In our school district, they have a placement test in Math that students take going into 6th grade and that put my D in the 2 year accelerated schedule. She did fine thru out junior high and HS. A few others were placed on the same track but fell back, they simply got moved to a less advanced track. Nothing wrong with trying one route and change tack later;)</p>

32

<p>I’m not a parent, but I’ve always been an advocate for students staying on the advanced track (if they are inclined to do so) and then slowing down if it proves too difficult. If she wants to stay on the accelerated track, I think you should let her do so. My parents were hesitant in the same way you are when I had to make similar decisions, but I ended up doing it and excelling in those classes anyway (even one’s that I was not particularly a “whiz” at). If she doesn’t want to do it at all and hates math, that’s a different story, but if she’s interested, I would encourage letting her try.</p>

<p>I also wanted to point out that while the prerequisite for AP Physics may be pre-calculus or calculus, I would encourage her to take Calculus before AP Physics if she is in a position to do so (and if she is interested in taking AP Physics, of course). I took AP Physics C (B might be a different story) and AP Calculus concurrently, and it can feel very overwhelming initially because AP Physics is calculus based. My AP Physics teacher tried (and failed) to teach us calculus in an hour, and we ended up spending a lot of time asking our calculus teacher for help. So if she is able to take calculus before AP Physics it is helpful.</p>

<p>Also, there is much to be said for her continuing on the same track as her group of friends. I took a lot of AP classes just because my friends were taking them, and I ended up with many more AP classes than I would have otherwise (and I enjoyed the classes and did much better in them when my friends were there as well).</p>

33

<p>My S was in a magnet program where the normal expectation was take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. His sequence starting in 7th grade was Alg 1, Geometry, Alg 2, Precalc, Calc AB, IB HL Math(Calc BC). He was good at math, but not a whiz kid by any means and didn’t have trouble with this. It was useful when he got to college to be a little ahead, and he got college credit besides; no purpose would have been served by delaying in middle school. </p>

<p>On the other hand, one of his friends repeated Alg 1 in 8th grade–his parents felt like it wasn’t solid enough after 7th grade. That wasn’t a disaster either. The kid will be senior next year at one of the CC Top Liberal Arts Colleges with a chemistry major.</p>

34

<p>When my D went to HS in a different school than her K-8, I was surprised to find out that other schools, private and public, had offered Algebra in 7th grade - hers did not. I had always felt that her middle school held kids back rather than letting them run with the ball, and when I saw that she had sort of missed out, I felt badly because she was a strong math student. In fact her honors 8th grade algebra had not covered the material all that well, and had been half filled with kids who were not really top math students, but the parents had pushed them into the class (had to be in the top class kind of thing.)</p>

<p>She ended up on the track to take BC calc in grade 12, which was fine. Even though the math was taught in a challenging manner in HS, it still was not up to the level of her college math. Some students from other school systems had even more challenging math than her HS offered, but these were the extremely few. If you have a potential STEM student, and the child is good in math, I would want a school system that offered post BC level college math - multivariable calc or linear algebra or both. AP stats is good for many career paths - psych, business, premed and many others, so both AP calc and AP stats is not a bad alternative if no linear algebra or multivariable calc.</p>

<p>For some STEM, calculus will be enough math. Engineers need more. However, for pre med, it pays to check requirements like whether calc at college (not AP) is needed. </p>

<p>I don’t like it when someone is pushed ahead and holds the class back, and equally don’t think it is so good for the kid, if the class is too slow.
Good luck in finding the right level.</p>

35

<p>I don’t see the downside of starting off in the most advanced math class and trying it out. In our school system, you can always move down a math track, but once you reach high school, you can’t move up. My son was placed in the “one year accelerated” track by his 6th grade math teacher. She had me so scared about the difficulty of learning both 7th and 8th grade math in one year that I never questioned it. </p>

<p>When my son reached 9th grade, it became blatently obvious that he was in the wrong math class. After their very first test of the year, he told me that they had to get their tests signed by a parent because so many students did so poorly. His grade - 108. All he did that year was complain about how boring the class was. Other than spending all summer taking a math class (which he refused to do), there was nothing we could about it. He will take AP Calc BC in 12th grade - which is fine, but if I had pushed him in 7th grade math, he could be taking the calc 2 & 3 GT class with several of his friends.</p>

36

<p>As a high school math teacher, I would suggest a couple of things. I teach at a competitive, selective admissions school, and yet even our AP Calc and AP Stat kids struggle with some middle school topics. We suspect it is because they either skipped them or went too quickly in their middle school in order to accelerate to algebra. </p>

<p>Can your daughter easily complete all operations with fractions, decimals, and percentages? Can she solve word problems without struggle? (I.e. Sally walked 1.4 miles to grandma’s house, a third of a mile to the store, a tenth of a mile to the dry cleaner, a half-mile back to grandma’s house, then back home. How far did she walk?). That type of problem involves knowing which operation, changing decimals and fractions, and extrapolating how far it was back home. Sounds silly, but I have honors students who might have a hard time figuring out to use addition!</p>

<p>Also, it is critical to understand fraction arithmetic. Yes, calculators can “do” fractions, but if a student doesn’t understand fraction arithmetic, she will have a difficult time when studying rational expressions and equations with variables in those fractions!</p>

<p>Does your daughter understand significant figures, rounding, properties such as commutative and associative? And, seriously, how are her arithmetic skills? I actually had an “argument” this year with a student over the value of 4*8 (she had to be convinced via calculator that it was NOT equal to 24!)</p>

<p>Also, can your daughter accomplish all these middle school tasks with ease and speed? If it takes her much time to think through and complete these types of problems, she may not have yet had enough practice on them. </p>

<p>We have certainly had kids who take precalculus as freshmen and do fine. I would have to say, though, that these have been “math whizzes.” </p>

<p>Many students, and especially parents, think middle school math is a waste of time, but it lays an important foundation. In addition, think about your own daily life - unless you are a design engineer, or similar STEM position - the math you use daily is middle school level! </p>

<p>AND, I know a young woman who was the Society of Women Engineers young engineer of the year who DID NOT EVEN TAKE CALCULUS in high school!</p>

37

<p>Hi OP -
My DD is in 10th Grade taking Pre-Calc Honors after beginning Algebra I in 7th grade. She will take Calculus AB next year, although she was recommended for BC. I think you need to determine if you trust the evaluation process for selection of accelerated math at the middle school. At the middle school DD attended, there was consistent monitoring to determine if the knowledge of algebra was consistent with readiness for Algebra II or Precalculus at 9th grade. </p>

<p>As other posters have mentioned, it is possible to drop down a level or repeat a subject studied at middle school later in high school. It is not possible to later accelerate to a more advanced level, except in rare circumstances. A student at DD’s HS took Honors PreCalc as a 9th grader and studied on own for AP Calc and scored a 5 without taking the course. The student was already highly accelerated in Math and is currently in a Senior honors class in Discrete Mathematics and will take college courses in Math as a junior & senior. </p>

<p>It is fairly common for stronger and more motivated Math students to accelerate and study Algebra and Geometry in middle school. Whether it right for your daughter is up to you and I would agree that discussing her preference would be the most critical factor in the decision process.</p>