Maximizing Med School Acceptance Success at Chicago

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
21

<p>idad,</p>

<p>In HS, my D took latin at the Harvard Extension School, parent of the summer school. It was taught by the chairman of the classics department. And the course was similar to his FAS course, but it was not the same. And Harvard does not allow its undergrads to receive FAS credit for Harvard Extension or Summer School courses, with rare exceptions. So anyone who takes a summer course should really sort out the credit issues in advance.</p>

<p>Side note, since it came up earlier in the thread: Prereqs are not absolute law. If someone took OChem outside UofC, it should not bar them from a course that had OChem as a prereq, to use one example. Prereqs. are guidance, not the law.</p>

22

<p>The Harvard students registered through Harvard College, though one can enter the summer program via the Extension school. The Harvard students did receive credit for the course; from the website for Harvard College students:
[quote]

Chemistry
CHEM S-1ab satisfies a year of general chemistry, either for a chemistry concentration or a premedical program. Likewise, CHEM S-20ab satisfies a year of organic chemistry, either for a chemistry concentration or a premedical program.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>S1 took OChem at Chicago, and was given a full year of gen chem credit counting toward graduation (but the grade did not affect his GPA).</p>

23

<p>Newmassdad:</p>

<p>Great post, and true to form, you raise some good questions. First, please keep in mind that in my original post, I said this thread would be about admission to a TOP medical school (not "A" medical school). For my advice on acceptance to "A" medical school from Chicago, see my post on the other pre-med thread, available here:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/674314-neuroscience-psychology-pre-med.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/674314-neuroscience-psychology-pre-med.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now, in terms of my assumption that Chicago does the worst in med school placement in comparison to its immediate peers, this is just an assumption, but I feel it is a probable one to make. For top medical schools, GPA and MCAT matter a LOT. Given Chicago's incoming class is as talented (but not necessarily better) on standardized tests as its peers from Dartmouth or Brown, I'm assuming the avg. MCAT (just like the avg. LSAT for students at all these schools) are roughly similar.</p>

<p>Moreover, given the fact that Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, etc. all have documented grade inflation that significantly exceeds anything at Chicago (I don't believe 50%+ of Chicago grades are solid As, as they are at Brown), and because, as my pre-med friends disclosed to me after meeting with their pre-med advisors, Chicago only gets a 0.1 GPA boost in the med school admissions game, I don't really see how Chicago could do better than its peers in this process.</p>

<p>In short, I'm assuming student quality, resources and opportunities available to undergraduates, ability on standardized tests, etc. are all roughly equal between graduates of Chicago, Brown, Dartmouth, and the like. The only difference is GPA, and once again, I'm assuming, in a world where only the final hard GPA really matters to top med schools, Chicago falls off the pace here. </p>

<p>Finally, my advice is anecdotal, but it extends across the dozens of students I know pretty well that went through the pre-med process. At Chicago, I kept in good contact with about 30 pre-meds, and all of them displayed characteristics and an attitude that surprised me. They complained of the brutally difficult curve in Chem and O-Chem (which I believe was set to around a C), and the fact that med schools did not adjust enough for the Chicago level of rigor (i.e. the 0.1 boost was not enough). Moreover, unless I'm mistaken, the bar for Honors in Chem is a 3.25 GPA. This low GPA for HONORS seems to indicate just how difficult this discipline is at the U of C. As we all know, you don't have a chance at a top medical school with a 3.25 GPA. </p>

<p>Additionally, after graduating, one or two of these 30 pre-med friends/contacts went to top medical schools. The other 28 or 29 went to adequate but not superb medical schools (think Univ. of Illinois at Chicago or Southern Illinois Univ Medical School). Getting into a top medical school such as Harvard or Duke was seen as a pipe dream - only the truly brilliant could achieve this.</p>

<p>Again, I contrast this to my grad work at Penn, where of course, many many pre-meds go on to the fine (but not exceptional) state medical schools. There was a much larger and sizable contingent of pre-meds here, however, that worked diligently toward acceptance at a Duke or Columbia Med. This was seen as a tough goal, but it wasn't as much of an over-the-moon, totally beat the odds effort as it was at Chicago. </p>

<p>Again, all the evidence I can find point to Chicago falling off the pace for TOP medical school acceptance, JUST as it falls off the pace for TOP law school acceptances. There's no real reason to believe otherwise once we account for what top law and medical schools care about here. I welcome current students to post the law and med placement stats available at the advisors' office at Chicago.</p>

24

<p>What contributes to low GPA at UChicago?</p>

<p>Is it the content (well it shouldn't be the content because other schools have identical content)? Grading curve? Lack of inflation?</p>

<p>Does UChicago administration recognize the need to boost GPA?</p>

25

<p>I think Chicago students who took chem could CERTAINLY speak more to this, but in the sciences, I think Chicago professors value Chicago students taking certain principles and applying them in new ways on tests. This contrasts what's taught in other schools, where the emphasis is more on rote memorization, and doing the same sorts of problems found in problem sets on tests as well. In short, Chicago chem deepens your understanding and knowledge of the subject matter by creating innovative problems on the exams. At other schools, its more of a rote process. </p>

<p>Moreover, the professors in the dept. set the bar high, and they only want to reward exceptional success. So the curve when I was at Chicago was set to around a C or C+, and in terms of raw percentage, the avg. student was getting maybe 40% of the material right on a given exam. It facilitates a lot of self doubt because, not only are you getting a low grade (around a C), but your also only get a minority of questions right on the exam. I think at other schools, given grade inflation, even in hard classes such as Chem, the curve is set around a B or so. </p>

<p>I'm not sure why Chem is the outlier here. Physics and Bio at Chicago were always FINE. Physics offered a manageable track for pre-professional students, and I didn't really hear many complaints about Bio. For some reason, Chem and O-Chem at Chicago were the two brutal subjects. I'm not sure why, perhaps traditionally and historically, that dept. just held itself to a higher standard?</p>

26

<p>Cue7, </p>

<p>Curious comments about chem and O Chem. The kid I know best got As in honors general, and took a full year of OChem, including two quarters of honors (they did not offer honors the first quarter), getting As in all. She obviously did not find it difficult.</p>

<p>I think where your experience may be leading you astray is because of the nature of anecdotal information. To start, few people are 100% honest or accurate regarding their grades in conversation. Next, even Med School is surprisingly regional. Kids from Chicago, which draws heavily from the midwest, don't always want to go to a "top" medical school when they can go to "lowly" U of I, or U. Mich., pay in state tuition, and still be called "Dr." when they graduate. </p>

<p>I dare say that Chicago sends fewer kids to the likes of Harvard, Penn and Dartmouth because fewer kids apply. They apply to Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana and such where they do well. Oh yea, these places actually do pretty good research, too. </p>

<p>The only interesting publicly available data source I know of is mdapplicants. Unfortunately, few UofC students have posted their results there, but of those that did, there is hope. :)</p>

<p>One, 3.7 GPA, 36 MCAT, got into Harvard, Penn and Northwestern.<br>
Another with similar stats got into Columbia and UCLA, OOS.</p>

<p>Fact is, the bar is high for anyone getting into places like Columbia, the bar is high for everone. </p>

<p>Here's some stats (partial) for Columbia:</p>

<p>08352 Amherst College, 40 MCAT, 3.86 GPA, applied 2008
01936 Amherst College, 38 MCAT, 3.47 GPA, applied 2005
08206 Anonymous, 36 MCAT, 3.70 GPA, applied 2008
01455 Barnard College, 34 MCAT, 3.41 GPA, applied 2004
01644 Barnard College, 36 MCAT, 3.99 GPA, applied 2004
02484 Brown University, 34 MCAT, 3.68 GPA, applied 2005
01486 Brown University, 32 MCAT, 3.80 GPA, applied 2004
00675 Calif State U-LA, 39 MCAT, 3.95 GPA, applied 2002
02282 Case Western Reserve University, 35 MCAT, 4.00 GPA, applied 2004
01838 Catholic University of America, 35 MCAT, 3.98 GPA, applied 2004
01993 College of the Holy Cross, 37 MCAT, 3.62 GPA, applied 2005
05253 College of William and Mary, 38 MCAT, 3.95 GPA, applied 2005
00257 Columbia, 35 MCAT, 3.60 GPA, applied 2003
02027 Columbia University, 32 MCAT, 3.81 GPA, applied 2005
03399 Columbia University, 33 MCAT, 3.59 GPA, applied 2005
10034 Anonymous, 40 MCAT, 3.79 GPA, applied 2008
02187 Columbia University, 35 MCAT, 3.99 GPA, applied 2004
02907 Columbia University-Columbia College, 30 MCAT, 3.71 GPA, applied 2005
00043 Cornell University, 35 MCAT, 3.78 GPA, applied 2003
01634 Cornell University, 38 MCAT, 3.85 GPA, applied 2004
10354 Cornell University, 34 MCAT, 3.91 GPA, applied 2008
04766 Cornell University, 40 MCAT, 3.89 GPA, applied 2006
05153 Cornell University, 42 MCAT, 4.00 GPA, applied 2006
02731 Cornell Unviersity, 38 MCAT, 3.96 GPA, applied 2005
00215 Dartmouth College, 37 MCAT, 3.65 GPA, applied 2003
01333 Dartmouth College, 34 MCAT, 3.63 GPA, applied 2004
01435 Dartmouth College, 39 MCAT, 3.74 GPA, applied 2004
01258 Dartmouth College, 34 MCAT, 3.69 GPA, applied 2004
00852 Duke University, 38 MCAT, 3.88 GPA, applied 2003
00596 Duke University, 34 MCAT, 3.47 GPA, applied 2003
00796 East Carolina Univ, 42 MCAT, 3.80 GPA, applied 2003
00397 Emory University, 37 MCAT, 3.76 GPA, applied 2003
09511 Anonymous, 38 MCAT, 3.99 GPA, applied 2008
07800 Fordham University, 35 MCAT, 3.86 GPA, applied 2008
04025 Georgetown University, 39 MCAT, 3.88 GPA, applied 2005
05087 Georgetown University, 35 MCAT, 3.77 GPA, applied 2006
01505 Georgia Tech, 42 MCAT, 3.94 GPA, applied 2004
06958 Harvard, 38 MCAT, 3.70 GPA, applied 2007
09200 Anonymous, 32 MCAT, 3.31 GPA, applied 2008
02390 Harvard, 37 MCAT, 3.77 GPA, applied 2005
05228 Harvard, 37 MCAT, 3.78 GPA, applied 2006
07701 Anonymous, 40 MCAT, 3.72 GPA, applied 2008
07898 Harvard College, 41 MCAT, 3.61 GPA, applied 2007
03508 Harvard College, 38 MCAT, 3.49 GPA, applied 2005
07268 Harvard College, 38 MCAT, 3.75 GPA, applied 2007
00342 Harvard University, 38 MCAT, 3.77 GPA, applied 2001
02865 Harvard University, 34 MCAT, 3.67 GPA, applied 2004
03235 Harvard University, 38 MCAT, 3.94 GPA, applied 2005
13940 Harvard University, 43 MCAT, 3.91 GPA, applied 2007
04558 Harvard University, 37 MCAT, 3.80 GPA, applied 2005
08755 Anonymous, 36 MCAT, 3.69 GPA, applied 2008
03239 Johns Hopkins, 38 MCAT, 3.91 GPA, applied 2005
00413 Johns Hopkins University, 37 MCAT, 3.89 GPA, applied 2003
01163 Johns Hopkins University, 37 MCAT, 3.76 GPA, applied 2004
04029 Johns Hopkins University, 32 MCAT, 3.86 GPA, applied 2006
07225 Johns Hopkins University, 39 MCAT, 3.88 GPA, applied 2007
00593 Johns Hopkins University, 37 MCAT, 3.95 GPA, applied 2003
00695 Johns Hopkins University, 39 MCAT, 3.82 GPA, applied 2003
00526 Johns Hopkins University, 39 MCAT, 3.95 GPA, applied 2003
01580 Johns Hopkins University, 34 MCAT, 3.85 GPA, applied 2004
05329 Johns Hopkins University, 37 MCAT, 3.71 GPA, applied 2006
03066 McGill University, 38 MCAT, 4.00 GPA, applied 2005
04856 Medical University of Athens, 43 MCAT, 3.97 GPA, applied 2005
05031 New York University, 34 MCAT, 3.60 GPA, applied 2006</p>

<p>It is a long list, but you can see some obvious patterns I hope. You can find similar data for other schools. But if you look here, and especially if you look at the full list, you could easily see that at Columbia and other elites, MCAT scores are even more important than GPA.</p>

27

<p>Newmassdad - thanks for the informative post. All you assert could very well be true, but I would still think that, for students at elite colleges, getting into a top medical school, just like getting into a top law school - if possible - trumps any regional preferences. Of course, you should see more regional representation at the TOP schools in the region. So, Chicago undergrad should be well represented at Wash U Men, Pritzker Med, NU Med, and Michigan Med (roughly the top 4 overall med schools in the midwest). I simply don't know if, outside of Pritzker, this is the case. I'd imagine Princeton or Brown grads could very well outnumber Chicago grads at places like Wash U or Northwestern. </p>

<p>Please note - I did not mean to imply that U of I or Michigan were "lowly' schools. The schools I mentioned, however, UIC and SIU, are a step down from major research institutions like Michigan. </p>

<p>As you note, the MCAT is a huge deal. In the majority of the circumstances you list, however, the students also had extremely good grades. </p>

<p>Perhaps Chicago is much better on the med school front now. When my friends went to look at the med school placement list available in the advisors office - they, just like me when I looked at the law placement list - came back decidedly underwhelmed. </p>

<p>It may be unfair to think that, in the world of elite institutions, elite begets elite, but many students - even the one's choosing to face the challenges at Chicago - head to Hyde Park with this assumption in mind. Moreover, unlike students at Yale, Princeton, etc. - where the phrase elite begets elite really does ring true (look at any placement list to confirm this) - for Chicago, this does not seem to be the case. For many, this is a disappointing realization.</p>

28

<p>So, as to the grading in Chem/OChem.</p>

<p>These two classes (non-honors) curve to a B (perhaps a B-). This is as is stated by the professors. This means some will get As (see:newmassdad) and some will get Cs (or fail). Newmassdad, I don't believe Cue was stating that it was in any way impossible to get As in these classes, just that it is challenging for some pre-med students. I myself have done well in the classes, but because I know the way the class is graded I know that there must be a number of students who are not doing as well, those students who are not scoring above the average.</p>

<p>I'm pretty sure that the honors classes in Chemistry curve to a B+, but then again the classes are more difficult and your peers are more knowledgeable, but yea.</p>

29

<p>Cue7,</p>

<p>NU Med: 2 Chicago 1 Brown 1 Princeton
Michigan, 1 Chicago 1 Brown 0 Princeton
Wash U: 0 Chicago, 2 Brown 3 Princeton and you might find the individual Princeton stats interesting:
01886 Princeton University, 40 MCAT, 3.50 GPA, applied 2004
00118 Princeton University, 41 MCAT, 3.60 GPA, applied 2001
00481 Princeton University, 39 MCAT, 3.85 GPA, applied 2003</p>

<p>So much for grade inflation at Princeton. </p>

<p>It may be interesting to have "impression" driven discussions, but I find it even more interesting when what little data that is available is inconsistent with these impressions.</p>

30

<p>S1 said the prof in one quarter of o chem announced to the class that he had never given more than 7 A's in a term.</p>

<p>I don't know how U of C students do compared to their peers (if they have any :) ), but I do think that easily available statistics should be posted for med school and law school acceptance rates. Many schools do this, why not Chicago?</p>

31

<p>Newmassdad, perhaps I am off on this, but don't stratospheric MCAT scores mitigate lower GPAs? According to: Medical</a> College MCAT-GPA Grid | Admission Sync, the average MCAT score for Wash U Med is now a 37, and in 2003 or 2004, it was probably about a 36. So if someone applies with a 40 or 41 MCAT (a very, very good MCAT score - one few Chicago students can probably attain), wouldn't that allow for a 3.5 or 3.6 GPA? </p>

<p>I just don't know whether the data you provide is inconsistent with my impressions. In the data you provided, those with low gpas generally had very, very strong MCATs (36+). </p>

<p>In law, if a Chicago undergrad has a 3.4 GPA, but a LSAT 3 or 4 points ABOVE many schools' averages (say, a 175 LSAT score), then sure, this student still has a great chance at a great law school. </p>

<p>Please, note, just as Chicago's avg. LSAT score is lower than every single one of Chicago's peers, I'm operating on the same assumption for medical school. </p>

<p>Finally, idad, I absolutely agree. Why doesn't Chicago just have this information public, so everyone can see it? For both law and medical school, this should be available. My hunch is, in the ever-aware world of the internet, this info would only damage Chicago's reputation. All my friends who looked at the med school placement list found it to be a sobering affair, and after looking at Chicago's pre-law stats, I walked away disappointed as well. </p>

<p>Of course, please keep in mind, I attended Chicago years ago. I sincerely hope this has changed today. What idad's son said, however, (that a certain professor will only give out about 7 As in a given quarter), rings very true to my time as an undergrad at U of C. In a class of say, 90, where maybe only 5-7 As will be given out, getting a superb grade is simply shooting for the moon. It doesn't happen, and I still feel this sort of rigor is punishing, not rewarding. In contrast to this, in the humanities and social sciences, I'd imagine close to 30% (not 8%) of the grades are firmly in the A range.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So if someone applies with a 40 or 41 MCAT (a very, very good MCAT score - one few Chicago students can probably attain), wouldn't that allow for a 3.5 or 3.6 GPA?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Cue, There you go again. Why do you assume few Chicago students can do that well? </p>

<p>Frankly, I don't know, nor do I care, how Med school adcoms do their work. I'm just pointing out that students with GPA that are reasonable for a strong UofC student to get can lead to med school. </p>

<p>I will exit this discussion since it seems to be going no where. You've made your mind up.</p>

<p>I will just point out (as my parting shot? :) ) that students get into top med schools like Wash U. with less than top grades. Yes, they may need balance with top MCAT scores. But this is reasonable. After all, only top students from UofC (or Pton or Yale) should think about applying to a top med school, and top med schools are the point of your diatribe. But these same top students should also be able to get top MCAT scores. </p>

<p>At some point, this becomes rather circular. After all, a top school is defined by the high scores and GPA of its students. The top applicants from UofC are also defined by high grades and high test scores. If a UofC student does not have the goods, (s)he should not bother with top schools - same as peers at schools like Harvard and Yale.</p>

33

<p>Newmassdad - I assume Chicago students don't do AS WELL as their peers at other elite schools because what little data we have supports this contention. Look here: </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/650194-university-chicago-admissions-grad-schools-4.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/650194-university-chicago-admissions-grad-schools-4.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Akx06 posted the average LSAT scores of most of the top schools. Chicago finished behind every single one of its peers with a 162 LSAT, and the gap between Chicago's LSAT avg. and Yale's, for example, was quite significant (3 points). Princeton was not listed. Harvard topped the list at a 166 avg. Assuming that Chicago grade inflates less than these other schools, Chicago students must do BETTER on the LSAT then their peers to enjoy the same law school options. The statistics, however, point to Chicago students performing worse on this test than their peers. </p>

<p>Why would the case be any different for the MCAT? </p>

<p>When I said few Chicago students couldn't attain a 40 or 41 MCAT score, I just meant that in terms of probability. Just like attaining a 175 LSAT is beyond most Chicago student's ability based on Chicago's avg. LSAT, I'm assuming a 40+ MCAT is similarly difficult to achieve. </p>

<p>All the evidence I have, either anecdotal or quantitative, points to Chicago not placing as well as its immediate peers. Moreover, since Chicago probably doesn't grade inflate as much as Brown, Harvard, etc., Chicago students automatically must perform BETTER on the MCAT to have the same options as their peers at other colleges. </p>

<p>What I mainly wanted to demonstrate is that grad schools do not adjust for Chicago's rigor as much as incoming students may think. Many of my classmates found this out by their third or fourth year in the college. I am hoping with this thread, students interested in Chicago will learn this information much, much earlier.</p>

<p>Additionally, the problem I want to point out that when a Chicago student does not "have the goods" this may not entirely be at the fault of the student, but because of a structure that sometimes runs against the rules of the med school admissions game. At least when I was at Chicago, certain classes were simply punishing. You may have a Chicago student that is just as capable as his Harvard counterpart, yet given the structure of Chicago, this student faces a vastly less welcoming med school admissions process. This does not - and never has - seemed fair to me. </p>

<p>One of my other big points is, at least when I attended Chicago, the administration had a large propaganda scheme going: "med/law schools LOVE chicago applicants, and they LOVE the rigorous curriculum, and they definitely adjust for Chicago's legendary rigor." This is baloney for ADMISSIONS. It may be true for PERFORMANCE in professional school, but for admissions, this is a crock. </p>

<p>Chicago students compete toe-to-toe with Harvard, Yale etc. for Rhodes Scholarships, Marshall scholarships, Fulbrights, etc. I always assumed this was the case for professional schools as well, and I think many of those interested in Chicago think it's at least comparable. I ended my college career realizing this was definitely not the case. Unless you can show me any evidence out there that it is, all the evidence I have point to more awareness being needed about this weakness in the Chicago experience.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
Please note - I did not mean to imply that U of I or Michigan were "lowly' schools. The schools I mentioned, however, UIC and SIU, are a step down from major research institutions like Michigan.

[/quote]

UIC is a major research school. In terms of research dollars, it is number 48, which is higher than University of Chicago's rating. University of Chicago is rated number 55. The University of MI all campuses is rated number 2. SIU-Carbondale is rated number 153. Southern IL-Edwardsville (the medical/pharmacy schools are located here) is rated number 226.
<a href="http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf07318/pdf/tab27.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf07318/pdf/tab27.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

35

<p>That's interesting. I thought the U would cut top 50..</p>

<p>Can I see the source?</p>

36

<p>Nova10 - my apologies then, SIU is a step down, and UIC is right on par with all the rest of the other schools mentioned. I just did not know UIC was as competitive as U of C for research dollars.</p>

37

<p>
[quote]
Can I see the source?

[/quote]

The source is the link from the NSF, National Science Foundation.</p>

<p>At UIC, they make a big deal over the fact they are now a top 50 research school. They only cracked the top 50 a few years ago. For a while, UIC was the fastest growing research school in terms of dollars. In the past decade, they've more or less doubled their research dollars.</p>

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<p>How does U of Chicago fare in its business school placement in comparison to other universities?</p>

39

<p>As far as I know, Chicago students do extremely well for b-school placement. From what I know, a good rule of thumb is, if the type of graduate school does not value GPA as highly, Chicago will do excellent in placement for that grad school. So, for example, masters programs, PHD programs, and in business school, GPA is NOT as valued a commodity as it is in the law and medical school world. Accordingly, Chicago students do absolutely great in their b-school performance.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I don't have hard evidence behind my assertions - only anecdotal evidence. In contrast of my friends going the law and med route, however, Chicago students seem to excel on the b-school route. </p>

<p>No doubt, this is helped by Chicago's great placement for finance. Since students are also sort of "on the track," the majority wind up at outstanding business schools. Out of the 30 or so students I keep in touch with on and off that chose business school, I know about 5 at Harvard, a handful at Wharton, a half dozen at Chicago, another half dozen at Kellogg, a couple at Stanford, a few at Columbia, a few at Stern, and a couple at Duke. I can't really think of anyone at a business school ranked lower than 10-15 or so.</p>

40

<p>Oh - MIT was also a very popular choice for Chicago kids interested in business from my class. It seems most similar to Chicago - heavy emphasis on quantitative analysis, pretty rigorous, as far as business schools go, etc.</p>