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<p>Oh, a 165 LSAT is good. Darned good. Just not good enough to get you into a top law school.</p>
<p>" LSAT Mean = 151
SD = 7 The top 25 schools listed on the previous page range from 161-165. Let’s choose one for each score value.
Georgetown 161
Rice 162
Dartmouth 163
Williams 164</p>
<h2>Yale 165 "</h2>
<p>1)The LSAT Standard deviation is 10, not 7, so your Z score would be off.</p>
<p>2) The SAT percentiles cannot be directly compared to LSAT, GRE, GMAT, MCAT, etc percentiles because the “average” IQ if an SAT taker is ~103 and the “average” percentile of the graduate school entrance exams is ~116.</p>
<p>A rough estimate technique for comparing percentiles is to adjust the scores by ~1 SD. Therefore, a “median (50th percentile)” 151 on the LSAT is roughly equal to the 85th percentile (~1300) on the SAT and a 161 LSAT (~2 SD above the mean) is equal to ~97th percentile on the SAT, or ~1420. </p>
<p>Once you hit 3 SD on the LSAT, the corresponding score on the SAT is ~1520, but this is where the two exams diverge in their resolution. The LSAT is designed to discriminate more at the top end and the SAT is not so concerned with the tippy top end of the scale. This is due to the differences in the est taking population. Therefore, a 165+, or ~2.5 SD above the LSAT average can mean 1500-1600+ on the SAT.</p>
<p>I believe this estimate could be used with the GMAT, MCAT, etc as well. Simply adding or subtracting 1 SD to a score on any of these exams, score I would bet can estimate the aggregate (note, not individual) score on any other exam.</p>
<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.esc.edu/ESConline/focused/prelawresources.nsf/db1a77fb2f6bcf2085256bfa005466b0/f6f479ed15e0764885256dba005f2d3f?OpenDocument[/url]”>http://www.esc.edu/ESConline/focused/prelawresources.nsf/db1a77fb2f6bcf2085256bfa005466b0/f6f479ed15e0764885256dba005f2d3f?OpenDocument</a></p>
<p>Edit and summary of above-
Average IQ of SAt taker is ~103</p>
<p>Average IQ of grad school applicant ~116</p>
<p>Therefore the 2 exams are separated by roughly 1 SD</p>
<p>All of these exams are based on and inherently are IQ exams. Here is a calculator to use to convert SAT to GRE to IQ scores, but the SAT scores are for pre 1996. The pre-1996 SAT and the GRE were essentially the same exam, but the SAT back then actually discriminated better at the top end of the scale (or right end of the bell curve). The re-centering and recent changes have made the SAT less resolved at the tail end.</p>
<p>Scroll to the bottom for the calculator:</p>
<p><a href=“http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm[/url]”>http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm</a></p>
<p>I wish I could find where I got the 7 number for SD, it was a somewhat official site.</p>
<p>That being said, I was just quickly showing a base, rudimentary comparison assuming quite a bit and demonstrating that 1) Those average scores are still impressive, which your posts confirm and 2) That they were roughly correlated to higher SAT numbers, which my 5 points of data could not confirm but your post also believes this is likely to be true across more data points.</p>
<p>" How can you conclude anything about the overall student body from a test less than maybe 10% of students take on average? "</p>
<p>Good question, but the other point would be worry about your own individual LSAT score, you will be evaluated on your own individual merits, regardless of whether some other people who are not you, but happen to also be at your university, score higher, or lower, than you do.</p>
<p>I don’t understand the point of this thread. This is nothing more than comparing SAT scores all over again. Colleges don’t really raise your IQ and LSAT is more or less just another IQ test like SAT, though a bit more advanced. </p>
<p>Schools with high SAT average will tend to have high LSAT. The group taking the LSAT is simply a subset of the entire class. The fact that WashU has a lower score than its SAT averages suggest makes me think the data are PRETTY OLD. So I am afraid those who want to brag about their schools with this may want to use something more current.</p>
<p>It’s precisely another SAT thread.</p>
<p>So what? There are 700 of those. So here’s some new data to show similar information. Your second paragraph, Sam, suggests to me like you only don’t like this list because WashU isn’t placed super high. Don’t concern yourself with pointless bashing that occurred.</p>
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<p>Sure that’s true. Anyone suggesting otherwise is crazy. This is just another way to look at student body quality, like the SAT, except it’s measured at the end.</p>
<p>The reason why you can suppose this is indicative about the student body as a whole is the following assumption:
The 10% going to law school are not self-selected for intelligence level and are generally representative of the student body on the whole. </p>
<p>You can argue all day about whether that assumption is true, but I don’t have any reason to suspect the 100+ people taking the LSAT (if the number is around 10%) at even a small school like Brown is not a random selection.</p>
<p>
4 negations in one sentence.
don’t, suspect, at even, not. It’s like a mind game.<br>
For most of us who are 2 SDs below Brown IQ, we’re lost. ;-)</p>
<p>the average LSAT score IS a function of a school’s average SAT score, but not a direct correlation between mean score on the SAT and LSAT. This is because the sub set taking the LSAT isn’t always a representative sample of the entire student body that took the SAT/ACT. Larger schools, like Michigan, Florida and Penn State have far more engineers, teachers and the like who will not ever take the LSAT. The upper echelon schools like Ivy and top liberal arts schools have more graduate school professional students as a percent of the student body. I believe at these schools, the LSAT is much more a measure of the overall SAT scores.</p>
<p>I agree with Sam Lee- schools don’t have much to do with raising test scors. What I don’t agree with is why this is a worthless thread. There is nothing wrong with discussion.</p>
<p>
Or just ■■■■■■ :D.</p>
<p>Seriously, though, while tom’s right when we’re looking at much larger schools, I think that top schools teaching liberal arts (like those I included in my sample) will have a representative sample.</p>
<p>“Oh, a 165 LSAT is good. Darned good. Just not good enough to get you into a top law school”</p>
<p>Hell ya it’s good…it’s ~94th percentile of test takers, or well into the 99th percentile of estimated performance of the overall population at 2.5 standard deviations tall. This corresponds about the following:</p>
<p>IQ- 140
SAT- 1400 (old SAT of 1330 + ~70 to convert to new SAT)
GRE- 1332
GMAT- 680</p>
<p>using the following calculators:
[Estimated</a> IQs of the Greatest Geniuses](<a href=“http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm]Estimated”>http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm)</p>
<p>this is a converting calculator the ETS generated to convert GRE to GMAT scores- basically (GRE total+20)/2
<a href=“http://www.ets.org/gre/2008/9934/tool.html[/url]”>http://www.ets.org/gre/2008/9934/tool.html</a></p>
<p>Personally, I think it’s neat to be able to say “the average lawyer that went to Harvard has an IQ of ~140 (165 LSAT)” or “the average MBA graduate from U-Florida last year has a ~140 IQ (690 GMAT)”. But I’m a geek :)</p>
<p>Having said that, I am sure that IQ and standardized exams only measure a portion of sheer smarts, and some people with low scores are smarter than people with 180 LSAT scores, etc…I’m talking in aggregate terms though, not individual. Start talking in individual terms and the argument goes out the window in many cases, including my own who went from an 810 SAT to a 700+ GMAT by figuring out how to turn my brain on ;)</p>
<p>"I think that top schools teaching liberal arts (like those I included in my sample) will have a representative sample. "</p>
<p>1)Schools in your sample vary considerably in the proportion of students there who are studying in their colleges of liberal arts, from close to 100% of total to 33% of total, just of the ones I know about.</p>
<p>2) you previously posted data showing science and engineeering students were at or among the highest LSAT scorers. Yet such students are among the least likely to take the LSAT. Therefore LSAT takers at schools heavier in science students than a “typical” liberal arts college profile are particularly likely not to represent a random sample of the underlying population there.</p>
<p>Actually now that I think about it none of the samples can be random to the extent that some majors are less represented among the LSAT takers at any college, and there is data to suggest that they test somewhat differently…</p>
<p>3) the sample isn’t random anyway, for schools where courses cannot be dropped anytime and therefore some people actually get low enough grades so that law school is not realistic. I can understand why this point may have escaped you…</p>
<p>4) just look at incoming SATs for this purpose, this has no value as it is clearly a biased sample, to different extents among the different colleges thereby making them even more incomparable. The SAT data covers the whole population, not differentially biased samples, and has some range data too, which is more descriptive.</p>
<p>I have often wondered what they are, and I couldn’t find anything in the pre-med forum.</p>
<p>[US</a> Medical Schools: MCAT Scores and GPA](<a href=“http://www.mcattestscores.com/usmedicalschoolsmcatscoresGPA.html]US”>US Medical Schools: MCAT Scores and GPA)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/admissionsadvisors/examstatistics/scaledscores/combined07.pdf[/url]”>http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/admissionsadvisors/examstatistics/scaledscores/combined07.pdf</a></p>
<p>Looks like the MCAT has an average of ~25 with SD of 6.5-ish.</p>
<p>I would bet the average pee med at Harvard scores ~ 1.5 SD above the mean, or about a 35, which would equate to the 165 LSAT, 680 GMAT, etc…and an IQ of ~140.</p>
<p>Thank you, tomslawsky. Is there a list similar to ring<em>of</em>fire’s on his original post, where you would have the mean MCAT score by students at Cornell, Williams, Harvard, etc.</p>
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<p>Given that WashU refuses to submit admissions data to the CDS, how can we verify that their SAT averages were accurately reported? The huge disparity between WashU’s SAT and LSAT averages suggests that they may not have been.</p>
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[QUOTE=interestingguy]
Given that WashU refuses to submit admissions data to the CDS, how can we verify that their SAT averages were accurately reported? The huge disparity between WashU’s SAT and LSAT averages suggests that they may not have been.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Given that interestingguy refuses to submit data regarding having any experience with or relation to WashU, how can we verify that he isn’t just ■■■■■■■■? </p>
<p>Lol sorry couldn’t resist. But seriously enough with the anti-WashU and anti-Duke propaganda already, interestingguy. It’s ridiculous. Please find a better creative outlet than [this[/url</a>].</p>
<p>For starters, Harvard, Columbia, and UPenn don’t submit to CDS either. Even if they did, there’s nothing to say it’s any harder to submit false info to CDS than to submit it anywhere else. It’s just a “common data set.” Regardless, no self-respecting school is going to fake info like that, but since you’re clearly interested in WashU, you can find the equivalent of our CDS data here: [url=<a href=“University Facts - Washington University in St. Louis”>University Facts - Washington University in St. Louis]Facts</a> | Washington University in St. Louis](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=289318]this[/url”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=289318)</p>
<p>furthermore, the LSAT is only any sort of indicator about the SAT if the school has a significant focus on law. as pre-med is BY FAR the more dominant program at WashU, the average MCAT would be a much more informative statistic.</p>
<p>I haven’t seen a list like that for MCATs</p>
<p>I came across this thread at Top-Law-Schools that says WUSTL’s average LSAT score is 162. So the data posted on this thread is probably old.</p>
<p>[schools</a>’ mean LSAT](<a href=“schools' mean LSAT Forum - Page 13 - Top Law Schools”>schools' mean LSAT Forum - Page 13 - Top Law Schools)</p>
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