Undergraduate schools-Which are most commonly found at top Law Schools?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Matriculation to law schools has changed over the past decade or two as top law schools increasingly prefer that their students spend some time in the “real world.” Thus, many (most?) top law schools today have 33% or fewer of their students coming directly from undergraduate schools. This lessens the importance of the undergraduate institution in the law school admission process and, just as with graduate business school admissions, elevates the importance of time spent working after the undergraduate years. </p>

<p>Nonetheless, some students like to know the grad school placement record of a college and try to understand how their selection of an undergraduate school might affect their chances at law school acceptance. Law schools will insist that the undergraduate school is not that critical and it is the rigor of the curriculum and the student’s performance that will most determine the value of the four years spent in college. </p>

<p>In checking the websites of a number of top law schools, very few will fully post the undergraduate schools of their law students. However, Yale Law, Harvard Law, and Virginia Law do provide this information which allowed me to compile the following information on the top 50 “feeders” to these schools. While these results are not an exact statement of how each of the “feeder” schools fare at the entire universe of top law schools, it is probably a pretty good proxy. If anyone has matriculation data on any of the other top law schools (eg, NYU, Columbia, Georgetown, U Penn, Duke, Vanderbilt, U Texas, U Chicago, Northwestern, U Michigan, Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, etc), would you please post it and I will try to add it to my analysis. </p>

<p>Based on Absolute Numbers at Yale Law, Harvard Law, and Virginia Law, following are the numbers of students from these undergraduate schools (*Note: numbers from Yale, Harvard and Virginia are likely to be comparatively inflated as those law schools likely give higher weight to students from their own school or have an in-state matriculation requirement). </p>

<li> Harvard (339 graduates)</li>
<li> Yale (209) </li>
<li> Stanford (125)</li>
<li> Princeton (97)</li>
<li> U Penn (71)</li>
<li> U Virginia (69)</li>
<li> Columbia (69)</li>
<li> UC Berkeley (68)</li>
<li> Brown (66)</li>
<li>Duke (65)</li>
<li>Dartmouth (59)</li>
<li>Cornell (59)</li>
<li>UCLA (50)</li>
<li>Georgetown (45)</li>
<li>Brigham Young (41)</li>
<li>U Texas (36)</li>
<li>Notre Dame (35)</li>
<li>Amherst (33)</li>
<li>Williams (33)</li>
<li>Northwestern (30)</li>
<li>U Michigan (30)</li>
<li>NYU (26)</li>
<li>U North Carolina (26)</li>
<li>Emory (23)</li>
<li>Rice (21)</li>
<li>U Chicago (21)</li>
<li>Vanderbilt (20)</li>
<li>USC (20)</li>
<li>W&M (20)</li>
<li>Swarthmore (18)</li>
<li>MIT (17)</li>
<li>Brandeis (15)</li>
<li>U Washington (15)</li>
<li>Wash U (14)</li>
<li>Wesleyan (13)</li>
<li>Tufts (12)</li>
<li>Middlebury (11)</li>
<li>Boston College (11)</li>
<li>Pomona (11)</li>
<li>Wellesley (9)</li>
<li>U Wisconsin (9)</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon (7)</li>
<li>Carleton (7)</li>
<li>Wake Forest (6)</li>
<li>Bowdoin (6)</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins (6)</li>
<li>Haverford (3)</li>
<li>Davidson (3)</li>
<li>Vassar (3)</li>
<li>Caltech (2)</li>
<li>U Rochester (2)</li>
<li>Lehigh (2)</li>
</ol>

<p>Another, probably better, way to evaluate this is to consider the enrollment at each undergraduate school and calculate what % of its students find their way to the top law schools. These numbers reveal the great feeder strength of the LACs and expose the relative weakness of those schools with much larger student bodies. However, the percentages for some universities may be a bit understated because those schools also have good Law Schools that would likely accept higher than average numbers of students from their own undergraduate bodies and/or in order to meet in-state requirements. However, this phenomenon is widespread and likely would not dramatically change the results. Examples of undergraduate schools with high ranking Law Schools include NYU, Cornell, Georgetown, Columbia, Duke, Emory, Vanderbilt, W&M, U Texas, U Chicago, U Michigan, Northwestern, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford. USC. </p>

<li> Harvard (339 graduates, enrollment of 6649, 5.10% of its enrollment)</li>
<li> Yale (209, 5409, 3.86%)</li>
<li> Amherst (33, 1623, 2.03%)</li>
<li> Princeton (97, 4906, 1.98%)</li>
<li> Stanford (125, 6576, 1.90%)</li>
<li> Williams (33, 2017, 1.64%)</li>
<li> Dartmouth (59, 4110, 1.44%)</li>
<li> Swarthmore (18, 1479, 1.22%)</li>
<li> Brown (66, 6176, 1.07%)</li>
<li>Duke (65, 6534, 0.99%)</li>
<li>Columbia (69, 7319, 0.94%)</li>
<li>U Penn (71, 9841, 0.72%)</li>
<li>Pomona (11, 1533, 0.72%)</li>
<li>Georgetown (45, 6719, 0.67%)</li>
<li>Rice (21, 3185, 0.66%)</li>
<li>U Virginia (69, 14213, 0.49%)</li>
<li>Wesleyan (13, 2764, 0.47%)</li>
<li>Brandeis (15, 3267, 0.46%)</li>
<li>Middlebury (11, 2455, 0.45%)</li>
<li>U Chicago (21, 4671, 0.45%)</li>
<li>Cornell (59, 13,515, 0.44%)</li>
<li>MIT (17, 4066, 0.42%)</li>
<li>Notre Dame (35, 8275, 0.42%)</li>
<li>Wellesley (9, 2331, 0.39%)</li>
<li>Northwestern (30, 8023, 0.37%)</li>
<li>Emory (23, 6510, 0.35%)</li>
<li>W&M (20, 5594, 0.36%)</li>
<li>Bowdoin (6, 1666, 0.36%)</li>
<li>Carleton (7, 1959, 0.36%)</li>
<li>Vanderbilt (20, 6400, 0.31%)</li>
<li>UC Berkeley (68, 23482, 0.29%)</li>
<li>Haverford (3, 1168, 0.26%)</li>
<li>Tufts (12, 5078, 0.24%)</li>
<li>Caltech (2, 913, 0.22%)</li>
<li>UCLA (50, 24811, 0.20%)</li>
<li>Wash U (14, 7466, 0.19%)</li>
<li>Davidson (3, 1683, 0.18%)</li>
<li>U North Carolina (26, 16764, 0.16%)</li>
<li>Wake Forest (6, 4263, 0.14%)</li>
<li>NYU (26, 20,566, 0.13%)</li>
<li>Brigham Young (41, 30,798, 0.13%)</li>
<li>Vassar (3, 2378, 0.13%)</li>
<li>Boston College (11, 9019, 0.12%)</li>
<li>U Michigan (30, 25467, 0.12%)</li>
<li>USC (20, 16897, 0.12%)</li>
<li>Carnegie Mellon (7, 5623, 0.12%)</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins (6, 5678, 0.11%)</li>
<li>U Texas (36, 36878, 0.10%)</li>
<li>U Washington (15, 27488, 0.05%)</li>
<li>Lehigh (2, 4679, 0.04%)</li>
<li>U Rochester (2, 4696, 0.04%)</li>
<li>U Wisconsin (9, 30106, 0.03%)</li>
</ol>

2

<p>Just curious, why UVA Law? Not that it isn't a great law school - it is - but it's not traditionally considered a Top 5 Law School. Stanford, Columbia, NYU are better choices for this purpose.</p>

3

<p>Probably b/c UVa has detailed matriculant statistics available on its website, including UG institution, which the others don't appear to have.</p>

4

<p>Nothing in particular about Virginia Law. They just happened to provide the information on their website about where their students went to school. Frankly, I'd like to have data on 10-15 schools and do this again. If you or anyone else can help fill in on some of the missing schools (Stanford, Columbia, NYU, etc.), then please do so.</p>

5

<p>A little further down the law school pecking order, but still a solid program, Vanderbilt has UG institution statistics available for its entering class.</p>

6

<p>Does it follow that the LACs are necessarily better at UG education than a top national university, or is it more likely that a higher proportion of the students in LACs were planning on attending law school? Just curious. Not trying to start up a university versus LAC debate.</p>

7

<p>Many at large schools are majoring in things like engineering, business, education-teaching, computer science, nursing and a myriad of other things that often lead directly to real jobs with a BS or BA.</p>

8

<p>the Top LACs are incredibly competitive in terms of law school enrollment to the elite programs. it makes perfect sense. A/ W/ S all have top notch humanities programs (English, History, Poli Sci etc. - traditional majors of pre-law students). Basically law schools are looking for those who can demonstrate the ability do the "heavy lifting" reading, writing and critical thinking and there is certainly no better place than the top LACs to help one prepare for the intellectual rigors of law school. Finally, the more intimate environment of a LAC is well suited for things like recommendations, grad placement counseling, etc. vs. a large research oriented U, where you can get lost in the sea of students.</p>

9

<p>art,
Can you either post the Vanderbilt info or pm it to me and I will add it to the analysis? Thanks.</p>

<p>jazzymom,
I think you pose an excellent question and it cuts across more than just the National University/LAC landscape. Certain regions and/or certain schools have grad school matriculation as a larger part of their culture. Does this culture automatically make them a better school? For me, it definitely does not. For example, it is my impression that schools and students in the South or the West have not had anywhere near the same focus on graduate study as those in the Northeast. That does not mean that the Northeastern schools or their graduates are better, but rather that their programs are more geared to this life and/or career path.</p>

10

<p>Good points. We're going to be more diligent about investigating the LACs for S2 than we were with S1. Unfortunately, S1 closed off consideration to a lot of great colleges when he flatly said he would not attend somewhere with an enrollment less than his high school, which is big, 3,000 students. We're supposed to let them make their own decisions, right?</p>

11

<p>"...nursing and a myriad of other things that often lead directly to real jobs with a BS or BA."</p>

<p>as opposed to a 'fake' job barrons?</p>

12

<p>As opposed to Starbucks jobs. Jobs that allow one to get your own apt and become a taxpayer instead of a leech.</p>

13

<p>hawkette,
Here is Vandy's J.D. class of 09 profile: <a href="http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-students/admissions/download.aspx?id=531%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-students/admissions/download.aspx?id=531&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I was very surprised to see 109 different undergrad schools represented, for an entering class of only 190. Not many schools at all with more than 2 entering students. Not sure if this is normal for Vandy & it is something they consciously try to achieve, or just the luck of the draw this year.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Does it follow that the LACs are necessarily better at UG education than a top national university, or is it more likely that a higher proportion of the students in LACs were planning on attending law school? Just curious.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

<p>One of the things that drives me so nuts about the whole feeder school train of thought is the misguided notion that it is some direct causal relationship, i.e. if I do undergrad at XYZ, I'll get into ABC law school. </p>

<p>The feeder schools are feeder schools because they have historially enrolled a lot of students who are destined for uppercrust professional schools. The whole issue is linked to the question, "where have rich folk gone to college." Just to pick an example, Mitt Romney was probably going to Harvard Biz/Harvard Law, regardless of where he did his undergrad. This doesn't mean that every student who goes to Stanford is going to end up at Havard Business School...or that every student at Stanford even wants to end up at Harvard Business School.</p>

<p>I really think that 17 year olds should spend less time thinking about college in the same way as they think about the SAT test and spend more time thinking about the inherent value of the education and the type of educational experience they want. How you learn to think and communicate during your undergrad years will stay with you for life, regardless of what you end up doing.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
Many at large schools are majoring in things like engineering, business, education-teaching, computer science, nursing and a myriad of other things that often lead directly to real jobs with a BS or BA...as opposed to Starbucks jobs

[/quote]
In general, this is true (except for computer science, which is a major typically offered by LACs). If you want a marketable bachelor's degree, then you will likely be better off going to a large university, rather than a small LAC.</p>

<p>But increasingly, students don't necessarily want marketable bachelor's degrees. They feel that "real jobs" that require advanced degrees (e.g. MS, MBA, JD, MD, etc) are more attractive than "real jobs" that only require a bachelor's. So more and more students are entering college with the intention of eventually earning an advanced degree. This trend is likely to continue.</p>

<p>And in this case, the "real job" potential of the bachelor's degree is less important than its "academic acceptance" potential relative to graduate and professional schools. This shift in the perception of the bachelor's degree is highly favorable to the LACs. It's probably the main factor that has driven the rising selectivity and prestige of LACs in recent years. This trend is also likely to continue.</p>

16

<p>What numbers are you using for COlumbia? Columbia College, Seas, and GS or Barnard to get over seven thousand undergraduates? You DO realize that engineers are less likely to apply to Law school, Barnard is NOT part of Columbia' undergraduate schools and GS is a absoluty diff school (although they can take most of the same classes as we can)....</p>

17

<p>More and more students are also filling ug business, nursing and similar schools. The demand for such often means a second application process after some UG years and a high gpa.</p>

18

<p>Amherst wot woot</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
This shift in the perception of the bachelor's degree is highly favorable to the LACs. It's probably the main factor that has driven the rising selectivity and prestige of LACs in recent years.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think the relative prestige and selectivity of the top LACs has changed since the 1960s. The acceptance rates today are pretty similar to where they were during the last demographic bulge in the late 60s. In terms of prestige, those schools have always been viewed as roughly similar to schools like Dartmouth, Penn, Brown, etc.</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
I don't think the relative prestige and selectivity of the top LACs has changed since the 1960s. The acceptance rates today are pretty similar to where they were during the last demographic bulge in the late 60s. In terms of prestige, those schools have always been viewed as roughly similar to schools like Dartmouth, Penn, Brown, etc.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'd agree with this on balance with the following comment:</p>

<p>Even the very top LACs tend to be much more regional vs. the likes of a Dartmouth / Penn / Brown - i.e. A/W/S are much more well known in NE / East Coast, or take for example, Pomona (or other Claremont Colleges) which enjoys an outstanding rep in California / Pac NW but this strength simply doesn't carry nationally (I remember just hearing about Pomona for the first time from a Californian a few years ago never thinking that it would be that decent (which in hindsight it absolutely is) - clearly admitting my own "East Coast" upbringing bias playing a factor there, but the point still holds).</p>