<p>Dear All,</p>
<p>Does anyone know of a book on how medical school school rank applicants?</p>
<p>I would also be interested in how they view applicants from small liberal arts colleges vs. large research universities.</p>
<p>Thanks,
Walt</p>
<p>I would look at the pre-med page here. Most of that information can be found there. I know that at all of the small LAC’s we are looking at they all have 95=100% placement rates into medical schools and with the changes in the MCAT, the UG work at LAC’s will give those students a boost.</p>
<p>There are no published data on med school admission rates from various colleges. Any data a college or university might post to their website is pretty meaningless since there are so many different ways to calculate acceptance rates.</p>
<p>For example, do they count only MD admissions? Or do the numbers include students who matriculate at DO, Carribbean medical program and other foreign medical schools? </p>
<p>Do the numbers include only seniors who matriculate directly into med school from undergrad (i.e. applying after their junior year of college) or does the number include alumni as well? (Some schools count alumni in their stats who have graduated in the 5+ years prior to med school matriculation.)</p>
<p>Does the school use a committee letter process which prevents weaker applicants from getting their school’s endorsement and receiving the necessary LORs required for med school application?</p>
<p>Does the school restrict access to “pre-med” track classes to only the students who achieve certain academic benchmarks?</p>
<p>How does the college or university track the rates of acceptance? Do students voluntarily report application and acceptances or does the school have a formal tracking process in place?</p>
<p>Use huge caution when looking at any school which claims a very high acceptance rate. There are so many ways to massage the data–and there are no objective checks on their claims. As always GIGO applies.</p>
<p>I know four young women going into either their first or second year in med school. The only thing they have in common is high grades, high MCAT scores and demonstrated interest in medicine. </p>
<p>Otherwise each pursued med school in a unique way: one went to a community college and transfered to a big state u where she majored in biology; one went to a top-10 research public and majored in English and physics; another studied behavioral neuroscience at a mid-range private then taught for TFA for two years; the last one went to a top LAC, studied biology, and did research during summers. </p>
<p>The med schools they’re at: Washington University of St. Louis, Case Western, Tufts, and University of Colorado. </p>
<p>There are SO MANY different ways – and different types of education – to reach med school! But in the end, it boils down to the three biggies: great grades, great MCATs, involvement. It’s clear that where you go to school is rather secondary.</p>
<p>WayOutWestMom-the schools we have looked at post stats for admissions on the first try right after UG. Yes, most schools screen applicants to med school, including and especially the so called “top” schools–but to me, that is important too because if your UG doesn’t feel you can make it in med school should you really apply.</p>
<p>A general college that doesn’t feel it can prepare a student for med school - that is, offer core science courses at a level high enough to do well on MCATS - probably shouldn’t be accredited. This isn’t rocket science - it’s BASIC science we’re talking about.</p>
<p>katliamom–except that there are a lot of kids that WANT to be doctors that are not cut out to be doctors. It isn’t the college that has the issue, it’s the student. The kids can take all the MCAT tests they want but if they aren’t smart enough to pass the test there is only so much the college can do–just like there are plenty of kids at top high schools that don’t do well on the SAT/ACT. Schools don’t offer committee letters to those candidates they don’t feel can cut medical school. It isn’t rocket science to figure that not everyone that wants to be a doctor CAN be a doctor.</p>
<p>^^ with that, I won’t disagree. You’re right, of course.</p>
<p>Actually most “top” schools don’t restrict which of their undergrads can apply to med schools, though there are few top and not-so-top schools which are notorious for doing so.</p>
<p>Any accredited US or Canadian college or university can provide a suitable suite of med school pre-req classes. Katlia mom is correct about that. Med school pre-reqs are all lower level science and math classes–something almost every US college offers.</p>
<p>Except for a handful of “name” schools, one’s undergrad institution doesn’t provide a significant boost to a med school application. For the first round applicant screening, med school admissions are very numbers driven–sGPA, cGPA and MCAT scores. There are far too many applicants to med schools for adcoms to individually consider every single application that across their theshold. They use an arbitrary number cut off for their convenience in order to reduce the number of application packets they need to read.</p>
<p>AAMC recently published research about what kinds of things get included in med school adcom admission decisions and their relative importance.</p>
<p>The report is here:</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/261106...bvol11_no6.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/261106...bvol11_no6.pdf</a></p>
<p>You will notice that the undergrad institution an applicant attend isn’t even on the list.</p>
<p>Dear Wayoutwestmom, that link does not seem to work - and it is exactly the kind of information I am looking for - is there another link, possibly? </p>
<p>One question I am asking is, which colleges are best at getting their students into medical school? It can not be that there are not significant differences. I sent a note to some admission offices and a typical reply was along the lines of, “Our rates of admission to medical school are very high.” If you were in the market for a sportscar and the salesman said, “This car goes really fast,” what would your response be?</p>
<p>I don’t think you are going to get a more specific answer. The report linked does NOT have undergrad schools listed so I fail to see how this is exactly what you are looking for. </p>
<p>The important things for med school acceptances…excellent GPA, completion of requisite science and math courses with excellent GPA in these courses…and an excellent score on the MCAT.</p>
<p>walt, try the link here:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/1371359-how-do-adcoms-make-their-decisions.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/1371359-how-do-adcoms-make-their-decisions.html</a></p>
<p>thumper, by process of elimination :rolleyes:?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If there were one or two (or twenty) colleges (only) who met this criteria they would be super difficult to get into and super expensive. Many colleges can work. </p>
<p>I agree that you CAN’T go by percentages for any sort of accuracy. Consider two scenarios:</p>
<p>Each have 100 freshmen who come in thinking they want pre-med. </p>
<p>For both, 50 change their mind as they see what else is out there and/or start taking pre-med classes and decide med school isn’t really what they want. It just sounded cool when they watched Mash, House, or Royal Pains. ;)</p>
<p>Junior year rolls around.</p>
<p>College A has 40 who want to apply, but the committee deems only 20 of those worthy and the other 20 subpar or marginal, so those get discouraged and wonder what to do now. They know they won’t get accepted. Of the 20 who do apply, 18 get accepted. Voila, they’ll advertise a 90% acceptance rate, but was it really that? 40 wanted to apply and felt they could.</p>
<p>College B has 40 who want to apply and they support all 40 even though they know some aren’t likely. 24 get accepted, so they end up with a 60% acceptance rate. It seems much worse, but is it? 6 more students got accepted.</p>
<p>Then, one will say, “but will 6 more really get accepted?” Yes, it can easily happen. School A eliminated all marginal candidates because they treasured their high rate and didn’t want to take chances on borderline candidates. College B supported everyone even though they knew there could be issues. If you were one of the extra 6, which college would have been the better choice? Borderline apps do make it in sometimes, but not often enough for some colleges to support them since numbers are almighty.</p>
<p>With any school YOU like, check out how many apply, whether they support everyone who wants to try or not, and where the students go (mentioned higher up in the thread). It’s not as easy as finding a list and looking for the top acceptance rates.</p>
<p>Find a school with a track record of getting students into med school (many fit this) and then the student has to do the work. You can ask for average MCAT scores, but many schools might not be willing to share. Some are. It’s worth asking. The higher the better, of course. Remember certain schools start with more kids who naturally test higher, so adjust for that. You don’t need everyone testing high. You just need a few to know it can happen from that school (courses aren’t subpar).</p>
<p>I think many students get stuck when they need to choose between school A, where they will enter near the top of the curve, but where there are few other attractive options should their interest in preparing for medical school start to wane, and school B, where they enter in the middle of the pack or slightly ahead, and where the rigor of classes promises to prepare well for taking the MCAT and where there are several very attractive alternatives to pre-med, but where (because of the curve) there is less likelihood of maintaining a high enough GPA to become a viable applicant.</p>
<p>Oh, and school A is often much less expensive than school B. And, even at school B, the “attractive alternative” to pre-med might involve careful planning and large numbers of difficult classes in which low grades are common or high grades are common only because students taking the classe are self-selected. IOW, attempting to pursue both pre-med AND the “attractive alternative” might prove overwhelming.</p>
<p>Agree that if a student is entering near the top of the class, there should at the least be a large enough number of high MCAT scores and successful applicants to insprire confidence in the school.</p>
<p>Additionally, I would try to find out as much as possible about how the pre-med classes are run. Ask about curves, typical level of preparation by students taking the class (not that test scores are everything, but some students might be wary when over half the class scored a 4 or 5 on the AP exam, and above a 750 on the SAT II), numbers of students who withdraw each semester, and types of assistance available for students who are struggling. (Assistance could come in the form of tutoring from other undergrads, grad students, or even adults wih MS degrees hired by the tutoring center.) Ask to see typical exams and syllabi. Find out who teaches these classes, and take a peek at Rate My Professor.</p>
<p>WayOutWestMom–the top schools most certainly DO restrict applications by not offering committee letters (recommendation letters). The first round of med school selection is all computerized now and where you attend has no bearing as it isn’t a selection criteria.</p>
<p>OP, the best advice is to go where your child has the best opportunity to be a star–get the highest GPA possible, do some UG research and have time to put in volunteer hours. If a student goes to a school where they have to spend all their free time studying, that is not good. GPA and MCAT are key to get past the first round, then you want a nice, deep, volunteer experience and EC’s that make you shine.</p>
<p>Also, med school is expensive, the UG that is the most affordable is also a good consideration. Getting out of UG with no debt will be a huge bonus once they start paying the med school loan bills.</p>
<p>Thank you, entomom, that link worked, and thank you, everybody, for your thoughtful responses. My son is entering junior year (of high school) and I would like to dig a bit deeper before we decide which colleges to go look at. From what I can gather, the best strategy for getting this information is to send a more detailed list of questions to the college admissions office or the career office. does anyone know if colleges will respond by email to the type of questions mentioned by frazzled2thecore:</p>
<p>“Additionally, I would try to find out as much as possible about how the pre-med classes are run. Ask about curves, typical level of preparation by students taking the class (not that test scores are everything, but some students might be wary when over half the class scored a 4 or 5 on the AP exam, and above a 750 on the SAT II), numbers of students who withdraw each semester, and types of assistance available for students who are struggling. (Assistance could come in the form of tutoring from other undergrads, grad students, or even adults wih MS degrees hired by the tutoring center.) Ask to see typical exams and syllabi. Find out who teaches these classes”</p>
<p>Some schools will answer some of your questions, but my guess that many schools won’t. (Too time consuming to hunt up all the info you’re requesting and some of your answers may not be available or will depend on who’s teaching the class that year. Teaching assignments usually aren’t made more than a year in advance.)</p>
<p>I would suggest that before you email, you do some intensive googling/research on each school’s website. I know that for D2’s undergrad, almost all of the questions you’re asking were available on the website itself.</p>
<p>For who teaches the class–check the school’s registration page. Plug in the course number and sections offered will pop up with the names of the instructors. (But be aware the teaching assignments change from year to year. Who’s teaching the class this year might be someone different next year.)</p>
<p>For syllabi and final exams check the individual class pages. (But aware that both are the private intellectual property of the individual prof teaching the class and are posted at their discretion.) Most classes will have fairly detailed course descriptions in the college’s catalog–which is available online. You can also look for course descriptions on departmental websites.</p>
<p>For tutoring availability check the student assistance center page.</p>
<p>For average student prep look at enrollment requirements. (For example, at D2’s school, the most commonly taken freshman bio for majors required an AP Bio score of 4 or higher simply to register for the class.)</p>
<p>I doubt you will be able to find out the # of withdrawals from a particular class simply because no records are kept of that kind of information.</p>
<p>You get yourself into med school. Your school doesn’t “get” you into there.</p>
<p>"One question I am asking is, which colleges are best at getting their students into medical school? It can not be that there are not significant differences. "
-Maybe the significant difference exist. I am not familiar with that though. My D. is second year Med. student. She had awesome choices of Med. Schools and currently at the one that has been her #1 way back in HS. She graduated from public state school. While she is surrounded with people from very top colleges, Ivy’s and other Elite UG’s, there are others from her UG in her class as well as kids from other public state schools. Majority of very top kids are choosing UG publics because of huge Merit awards since Med. Schools are very expensive. Why not? Well, other people might have totally different experiences, I can base my opinion only on my personal experience and nothing else. I cannot imagine that having college GPA=4.0, decent MCAT and meeting all other requirments would not lead to great choices of Med. Schools after graduating from any UG.</p>
<p>PG quote: *You get yourself into med school. Your school doesn’t “get” you into there.
*</p>
<p>This is very true and this statement should be stickied in the Pre-med section of CC. Also, the statement that there’s no need to attend a Top 10 SOM in order to be a very good doctor…or to get a good residency. </p>
<p>PG…you also do a good job explaining how all US MD med schools are good enough. Could you please restate what you’ve said before? I can’t remember your exact words but something along the lines that SOMs all follow a similar curriculum, same books, etc. I’m guessing that fed funds to all US MD SOMs also play a role in creating a more uniform curriculum and standard.</p>
<p>Walt…my younger son is applying to med schools this summer. While his Pre-med Advisor has been very helpful and is leading the packaging of his Committee Letter, my son’s stats (GPA and MCAT and ECs) are what’s going to get him accepted (fingers crossed and maybe some prayers…lol) </p>
<p>As for your questions…I agree that you’re not likely going to get many/all of those answered. </p>
<p>Certainly, no one is likely going to hand over past tests (and how would it help you to see Prof A’s Orgo exams if your child may end up in Prof’s B’s class???). Each prof has the freedom to teach his (or her) class as he sees fit, to create his own exams, and grade/scale how he wants. </p>
<p>The school can’t tell you how 20+ different profs (teaching the various Bio I, II, Chem I, II, Orgo I, II, Physics I, II sections) are going to grade, scale, etc. </p>
<p>As for scaling/weeding…I can’t imagine why a school wouldn’t use those kinds of classes to weed. Those classes don’t just weed for pre-meds, but also for engineering, math, and other hard science majors. Why fool kids into thinking that they have what it takes for careers that will be over their heads or not their forte??? It’s best that such kids quickly redirect themselves into majors/careers that better suit their talents, than to let them get to upper-division without the talent/foundation to properly proceed. It’s not unusual for a prof to limit A’s to the top 10-15% of the class, and then award Bs, Cs, etc accordingly. </p>
<p>Sometimes you’ll hear that some bio/chem/orgo/physics profs will fail half the class as a form of weeding, but I don’t know how true that is. Personally, I haven’t seen that with my kids nor my many, many nieces and nephews who are mostly STEM majors. I think it’s more that there is a limit to the number of A’s…and then there are a number of Bs…a lot of Cs…and some Ds/Fs to those who truly deserve to fail. </p>
<p>Most/many universities are now offering free tutoring in most science/math subjects. There often is some kind of Center for Learning (or some other name) that the students get tutoring. Kids often can signup online and then show up at the appointed time. Some depts also offer tutoring by grad students.</p>
<p>An undergrads MD SOM Admission rate can only tell you so much. My son’s undergrad has over an 85% acceptance rate to at least 1 US MD SOM. However, no incoming frosh can really do much with that info since at nearly all colleges, over half the pre-meds end up changing due to grades or change of heart. </p>
<p>As incoming frosh, there may be 400 students declaring pre-med. After a year of Gen Chem, that number may be down to 300. After a year of Orgo, that number may be down to 200…and so forth. By the time MCATs are scored, only 150 may actually apply to med schools. So, if 85% of that 150 get accepted to at least 1 US MD school, how can you really use that info unless you’re certain that your child will be a “survivor”. </p>
<p>A student with a 3.0 BCMP and cum GPA is going to be advised that US med schools will not likely accept him…so he goes another route. All pre-med advisors have the stats at their fingertips that will show the chances for each pre-med student.</p>