Michigan Engineering

College Majors Engineering Majors
41

<p>My S is a HS Senior and is applying to a number of engineering programs, large and small (UM, UW-M, UIUC, Purdue, Rose-Hulman, Case Western, Rensselaer, Cornell, etc.).</p>

<p>I have a few question as far as size of the engineering school.</p>

<p>From what I understand, the big University professors do a lot of research and a lot of students get involved in some amazing and sometimes infamous research projects (i.e. involvement with space shuttle experiments/launches). However, is it a large level of luck to get involved in these research projects? Since there are so many students and just so much research, does a large number of students, or even a majority, get stuck with mundane projects or none at all???</p>

<p>Is this next statement true?
"Research projects is one of the main areas where a student gets close interaction and direct learning with professors at the large schools."</p>

42

<p>Here's what one on your list says:</p>

<p><a href="http://studentservices.engr.wisc.edu/research/research.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://studentservices.engr.wisc.edu/research/research.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

43

<p>Plantree,</p>

<pre><code> I'll let you know what happens at Purdue's ME department. Senior can elect to do an undergraduate research project. I don't think every undergrad is allowed to do this, I think there is a minimum GPA requirement because I only saw top students do this. I cannot imagine how they could handle every student doing one of these. The student would meet with the professor for a short time each week, probably 15 to 20 minutes. While the students may be involved with some interesting research, they rarely do much of consequence. Sometimes it would be a little side project that wasn't big enough for a Master's.
</code></pre>

44

<p>Dr. Reynolds,
I know when we visited Cornell the Junior ME student who took us on the tour was raving about her summer project that she worked on with a professor that was part of a rocket launch, which she attended a morning party to watch it lift off on TV. Very exciting, but is this the exception or the norm. If not the norm are a lot of these type opportunities out there at UIUC, U. Wisc-M, U. FL, U. MD, PA State, Va Tech (some of the big schools my S applied to). If these opportunities are very rare or only achievable by the top top students, then I might stress my S to highly consider the smaller schools more (he has applied to RPI, Tulane, Case Western, and Rose-Hulman).He has also applied to and been accepted by Purdue, but I see your opinion on them already.</p>

45

<p>jeffl, thanks for the info, I appreciate it much, I have UofM on my list as a Reach because of the GPA and my mom wants me to apply since she got accepted there when she was a kid, looks like things have changed.</p>

<p>My question is, schools that have inflated GPA's, e.g: Princeton, will they place students better, I mean that 80% place rate sucks, I can goto Cal Poly for 14k a year and they have like a 98% place rate, lot cheaper than the 34k i'll pay for Michigan.</p>

<p>Thanks for the info all.</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
However Sakky, that does not always mean that grading is comparable. I would be so bold as to say that a 3.5 at Michigan is quite possibly harder to achieve than a 3.5 at Stanford, even for students of the same calibre

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Companies are going to recruit at Stanford anyway if, for nothing else, for the better average student quality. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I am also not sure that Michigan and Princeton compete for Engineers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They compete for general high school seniors, however. You know how it is. Most people don't figure out what they are going to major in until they are well into their college years. Most high school seniors have no idea what engineering really is. There's plenty of shopping of majors going on at any school. I believe I read somewhere how the average college student changes majors, at least in his own mind, an average of about 4-5 times before finally setting on one. </p>

<p>You might reply that Michigan admits people by school so the issue of shopping will be less prevalent. Well, I would point out that even at a place like Berkeley that also admits by school (and in fact, admits by specific major within the College of Engineering), well over half of all admitted engineering students will never earn an engineering degree. Usually they end up switching to an easier non-engineering major, although a significant number flunk out completely. I'm sure the same thing happens at Michigan. </p>

<p>So I agree that Michigan and Princeton may not compete for true engineers. However, my point is, how many high school seniors know that they are true engineers? Few high school seniors are truly ready to commit to engineering. Given the choice between admission to Michigan engineering and to Princeton, and given that the guy may not be all that committed to engineering anyway (as I'm sure that plenty of admitted Michigan engineers switch to something else, just like many Berkeley engineers do), it seems to me that you would want to hedge your bets. </p>

<p>I agree that some people know that they want to study something technical. But to already know in high school that you are sure you want to be an engineer? I think that's rare. MIT is probably the best engineering school in the world, and yet even there, there are plenty of incoming freshmen who have no idea what engineering is about and so aren't sure whether they want to major in engineering or a science.</p>

47

<p>
[quote]
Surely i-banks somewhat recognize the difficulty in engineering?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I'll put it to you this way. I've seen guys coming out of Berkeley with GPA's barely above a 3.0, in subjects like Biology and Economics, who nevertheless got offers from the big-league banks. They're not even engineers, their grades aren't that spectacular, and they got hired anyway.</p>

<p>What Ibanks seem to want most of all is 'the look' and interview skills. Yes, some banks use GPA cutoffs. But there are ways around that. If you network properly, you can get your resume in the right hands and increase your chances of at least getting the interview. Once you get to the interview stage, then your grades don't really matter anymore.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
My question is, schools that have inflated GPA's, e.g: Princeton, will they place students better, I mean that 80% place rate sucks, I can goto Cal Poly for 14k a year and they have like a 98% place rate, lot cheaper than the 34k i'll pay for Michigan.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know about necessarily 'placing better'. From what I've seen, a lot of the placement data has to do with the specific motivations of the students themselves. For example, Yale Law has one of the lowest placement rates of any of the elite law schools. If you don't believe me, you can look it up yourself. It's not because employers don't like Yale Law. It's more to do with the fact that Yale Law grads don't like a lot of employers. Specifically, Yale Law grads are highly selective in the kinds of jobs they want. They're not going to take just any law job. They'd rather take no job at all and keep looking for the job they want rather than take a job they don't like. I've heard similar sentiments expressed by MIT engineers - many would rather go jobless and continue to search for the specific job they want rather than take a job offer they don't like just for the sake of taking it. </p>

<p>To put things in further perspective, here are the placement rates of Berkeley engineers, under the column of "seeking employment" in the Activity Summary section.</p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/EECS.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/EECS.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MechEngr.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/MechEngr.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/ChemEngr.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/ChemEngr.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/IEOR.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Major/IEOR.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

49

<p>For really knowledgeable hs seniors, Princeton and Michigan don't compete for engineering students, because they are not in the same league. But, for a lot of high achieving, but "college clueless" hs seniors, they do compete since US news is the only source of information for them to compare. and Michigan is always top 10, Princeton is always slightly lower. Princeton obviously offers more prestige, but those clueless HS students will think Michigan is ranked higher, therefore it must be better. But, this is not true of course.
Michigan Engineering acceptance rate is 70+% i believe for undergrad, i'm sure Princeton is far more selective. </p>

<p>With regard to employment, there are many colleges with better employment rates and higher starting salary offers than Michigan Engineering. I know RPI is one for example. If you are a high school senior looking for good colleges to study engineering, i recommend either those liberal arts colleges(ie Swarthmore) that offer you a broad engineering education or Rice University, I've talked to several people that graduated from Rice, and their technical education is a lot superior and the tuition is pretty low. Generally, i'd look for smaller schools with small engineering departments. US news rankings don't matter, as long as its somewhere in the top 150.</p>

50

<p>
[quote]
Princeton obviously offers more prestige, but those clueless HS students will think Michigan is ranked higher, therefore it must be better. But, this is not true of course.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I would argue that these same 'clueless' HS seniors would choose Princeton over Michigan based purely on the USNews general (i.e. non-engineering) ranking. After all, if you're clueless, then how exactly did you determine that you want to be an engineer? I would have to say that you'd have to be pretty "clueful" to already know what degree you want. I have met very few HS seniors that are that sure of what they want to major in. Heck, I've met some college juniors, even at elite schools, who still don't know what they want to major in.</p>

<p>
[quote]
With regard to employment, there are many colleges with better employment rates and higher starting salary offers than Michigan Engineering. I know RPI is one for example. If you are a high school senior looking for good colleges to study engineering, i recommend either those liberal arts colleges(ie Swarthmore) that offer you a broad engineering education or Rice University, I've talked to several people that graduated from Rice, and their technical education is a lot superior and the tuition is pretty low. Generally, i'd look for smaller schools with small engineering departments. US news rankings don't matter, as long as its somewhere in the top 150.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, by that logic, you might as well go to someplace like Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. The average engineering salary there is something around 54k. Does that mean that people who get admitted to Michigan or Berkeley should decline in order to go to Cal Poly?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.careerservices.calpoly.edu/students/careerplanning/gsr.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.careerservices.calpoly.edu/students/careerplanning/gsr.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look, a few thousand dollars in salary makes little difference in the long run. The real issue is whether the school fits you or not. Looks like Michigan doesn't suit you. Fine. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't suit everybody. MIT has a quite large engineering department that nevertheless seems to churn out engineers with great success. Caltech has a tiny engineering department that also churns out engineers with great success. Hence, I don't think that size has anything to do with it. What really counts is whether you are in a school that fits your style of learning, not whether the department happens to be big or small.</p>

51

<p>are you gonna say anything else other than this is my opinion, if that is it, i think its loud and clear. I goto Michigan Engineering, if you're a prospective, come to Michigan engineering and ask student questions, I'm one of them, because I go there, and it is without a question my opinion. a few thousand dollars isn't anything in the long run, i agree. But, it is one of the factors to consider. You should never major in something just for the high starting pay.
There is a lot of students out there that decided to major in engineering, because they are good in science/math and there is a good starting salary. When coming out of high school, it is very easy to be determined about your career path. so in fact, i think what u think is wrong.</p>

52

<p>
[quote]
I would be so bold as to say that a 3.5 at Michigan is quite possibly harder to achieve than a 3.5 at Stanford, even for students of the same calibre.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While I am sure it's harder to fail at Stanford, I don't know if it's easier to get an A. If I am not mistaken, you are saying a person with a 3.5 GPA at Stanford would have a hard time to get 3.5+ at Michigan. If you look at med/law school placement stats from Berkeley and Stanford and see how LSAT/MCAT correlate GPAs for both groups, you will actually see that the ones from Berkeley with say, 3.5 GPA, often score slightly lower on LSAT/MCAT than those from Stanford with the same 3.5 GPA. Berkeley probably has the same kind of grading as Michigan and slightly more competitive student body.</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
When coming out of high school, it is very easy to be determined about your career path. so in fact, i think what u think is wrong.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If that's true, then why do college students report switching majors so many times? I seem to have read somewhere that the average college student consider 3 or 4 majors before finally settling on one. </p>

<p>In fact, let me put it to you this way. Take a school like MIT. MIT is, I think we would agree, the best engineering school in the country. About half of all MIT undergrads will get degrees in engineering (or CS). Yet MIT students cannot officially declare their major until their sophomore year. All MIT freshmen are, by definition, 'undeclared'. Furthermore, at MIT, all majors are open to anybody. For example, if you want to switch into EECS, you are completely free to do it. If you want to switch into Management Science at the Sloan School, you are free to do it. If you want to switch into Economics, you are free to do it. Nobody is going to tell you that you can't. </p>

<p>The same thing is true at Stanford. Everybody is free to switch into whatever major you want. If you thought you wanted to major in EE, but now decide that you'd rather major in Art History, you are free to do it. The same thing is true of most of the private schools. </p>

<p>Even at Michigan, there is some switching around allowed. True, you cannot easily switch from the Engineering School to LSA. However, within LSA, students are generally free to move around and switch majors. For example, if you thought you wanted to major in Physics but now decide you instead want to major in Film Studies, you are free to do it. </p>

<p>But ask yourself - why is this allowed? If students are already supposed to be determined about their career path before they even step foot on campus, then why allow people to switch around at all? MIT, Stanford, Michigan, and every other school can just say that they you have to know what you want to major in before you arrive, and you aren't allowed to switch. It would be easier for the school administratively, because each school would know exactly how many academic resources each major would need. And since you say that it is easy for the students to be determined about what they want to major in anyway, then that means they aren't hurt by this new policy either. After all, if they really are so determined, then they aren't going to switch anyway. In other words, why even give students the option to switch, if that option is not going to be used anyway?</p>

<p>Obviously the truth is that plenty of students are not determined and hence switch around and end up majoring in something different from what they thought they would. That's precisely why colleges allow students to switch around.</p>

54

<p>actually, the point is that before hs seniors enrolled in college, they generally are very certain about what they want to study in college, until they get there. and it is VERY EASY to transfer from engineering to LSA. all you need to do is fill out a slip and you are transferred.</p>

55

<p>Wow, this thread discouraged me from Michigan a lot. I was originally planning on picking Michigan over CMU, but the stuff mentioned in this thread is making me lean toward CMU. </p>

<p>Question: How is RPI? According to princeton review, it does not have many happy students. I am currently considering engineering/psych/med. If i only got into, lets say, BU, WPI, and RPI, which one should I choose?</p>

56

<p>
[quote]
actually, the point is that before hs seniors enrolled in college, they generally are very certain about what they want to study in college, until they get there. and it is VERY EASY to transfer from engineering to LSA. all you need to do is fill out a slip and you are transferred.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You just contradicted yourself. If it's really true that these HS seniors are supposed to be very certain about what they want to study, then why does Michigan make it very easy to transfer from engineering to LSA? Why not make it very hard? Or just make it impossible? After all, if these HS seniors really are that certain about what they want to major in anyway, then they won't want to switch around anyway, so why give them the option? </p>

<p>The fact that Michigan allows engineers to switch to LSA must mean that a lot of students want to make that switch, which means that clearly a lot of HS seniors are not sure about what they really want.</p>

57

<p>There are a lot of people that transfer, but again, you fail to see the difference between feeling determined, and actually knowing what they want to do. A lot of people FEEL engineering was right for them and decide to transfer, but when they FELT that engineering was right for them, this was in HS, when they were picking colleges, which i presume, is what you are still arguing about.</p>

58

<p>It's not that I fail to see the difference. Rather, it's that I don't see the difference as relevant. Who cares why they want to transfer? The point is that they transfer. </p>

<p>Look, I think what happens at Michigan is the same thing that happens at Berkeley. At Berkeley, it's easier to transfer from the College of Engineering to the College of Letters & Science than vice versa. Hence, a lot of strong students will apply to the College of Engineering figuring that if they end up wanting to major in English, it's easy for them to transfer over. On the other hand, if they get into L&S and later decide they want to be engineers, that will be difficult. Hence, they apply to the College of Engineering not because they really feel that they want to be engineers, but as a way to maximize their future options. It's a purely tactical ploy. Yes, some of these people might think they might actually want to be engineers. But the feeling is not that strong.</p>

<p>And that's exactly my point. Sure, I agree, many HS seniors may 'feel' that they want to be engineers. But I doubt many of them feel so strongly about it that they are willing to turn down a school like Princeton over it (again, unless money is the problem). I think these students know the intensity of their feelings, and they should know that if they choose Michigan for engineering, and they're wrong about wanting engineering, they just turned down a superelite school. It's not like they can just turn down Princeton for Michigan, find out that they don't want to be engineers anymore, and just say "My bad", and just transfer to Princeton. Princeton hasn't accepted transfer students for many years now, and probably won't anytime soon. Hence, choosing Princeton, in the beginning if nothing else, is the safer choice. </p>

<p>To give you another example, how many people, honestly, are going to turn down Harvard for Illinois (again, unless money is the issue)? I think we can all agree that only those people who are pretty darn sure they want to be engineers will do that. Even those people who think they want to be engineers will be thinking in the back of their heads "What if I'm wrong and I find out I don't want to be an engineer?". Turning down Harvard for Illinois is not a step you take lightly.</p>

59

<p>A lot of kids have their heart set on engineering and can't take it. There are a lot of transfers and they make it fairly easy b/c a lot of kids become miserable right away.</p>

<p>Also kids go into for the wrong reasons. They are pre-med but want an engineering degree. Their teacher told them they would be a good chemical engineer just because they liked chemistry and math. Their parents are engineers. Money. Asian parents. Craziest one is that he saw it on a cartoon (Batman Beyond?) and thought it was cool. Not joking.</p>

<p>Also these kids often think they are good enough b/c they were the top of their high school but it isn't high school anymore and they don't realize that right away (or maybe they do and want out) but the thing is that you can have your heart set on something and have it change. Which is why, if I would have went to a film school, I'd probably be truly unhappy now.</p>

60

<p>Wow. I'm an incoming engineering freshman @ umich... this makes me very nervous and upset about my decision. I've spoken to tons of people who praised the program but this "horror" story seems to nullify all the praises.</p>