Michigan or U-Penn

College Search & Selection
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<p>plasmaprestige, most private universities omit graduate students from their student to faculty ratios. It is easy to tell which ones do. Whenever the ratio is less than 10:1, it is likely that they left out thousands of graduate students. Obviously, not all 10,000 Penn graduate students should be included. Law and Medical students should be left out of the student:faculty ratio, as should their faculties. But the majority of Penn’s graduate students (over 5,000 to be sure), should be included. All of a sudden, the ratio is no long 6:1 but 10:1 or higher. Still lower than Michigan to be sure, but no longer so dramatically so. </p>

<p>For proof, all you need to do is vist Section I of their respective common data sets. You will likely see that Michigan lists 37,000 students in its calculation, which obviously includes approximately 10,000 of its 15,000 graduate students (the 5,000 it does not include are enrolled in programs such as Law, Medicine, Social Work, Public Health, Pharmacy, Dentistry, which do not enrol undergraduate students etc…) since there are only 27,000 undergraduate students. Penn on the other hand will likely list fewer than 10,000 students in its calculation, which obviously only includes undergraduate students, since that’s how many undergraduates attend Penn. Both universities have left faculty that only teach graduate students out of the equation.</p>

<p>Several private universities use similar ploys to increase the percentage of classes with fewer than 20 students and decrease the percentage of classes with more than 50 students. I am not sure if Penn does so, but many private universities do. </p>

<p>Like I said, you want to compare apples to apples. If you are concerned about the size of Michigan’s Orgo class, you should check how large Penn’s Orgo classes would be. I doubt you will notice a major difference. My own research on class size has shown that when comparing similar classes at Michigan and private universities, the difference is not that pronounced. In most instances, there is no difference whatsoever.</p>

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<p>Michigan for that price AND because Michigan is good for the field you want to go into.</p>

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<p>“FYI, private schools just love to separate undergraduate from graduate students when figuring S:F ratiosm. Publics, like Michigan, include all students when figuring out this stat.”</p>

<p>I checked Penn’s site, and they reported 24,000 total students (both undergraduate and graduate) and around 4,000 faculty, meaning the 6:1 ratio is accurate.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the clarification, Alexandre. </p>

<p>Ultimately, I will make my final decision after visiting Penn (hopefully late this week). I have a feeling I will really like the campus and atmosphere. While Michigan is terrific school no doubt, it also has some elements which I do not like. For instance, the school is part of the Big Ten conference, which makes it a huge sports school. I am not into sports whatsoever (my vision does not help), and so I will become, at best, bored, and, at worst, irritated, over the course of four years with the sports hype. </p>

<p>Obviously any school will have qualities that I will not like. However, with a private institution like Penn, and an Ivy at that, I presume that there will be more students whose focuses align more with my own—students who are more interested in politics, science, card games, and video games than football, partying, or hockey. </p>

<p>The differences in atmosphere is a huge factor for me. I have invested quite a bit of time and effort to produce good grades, test scores, and extracurricular work. I have no regrets and did everything because I loved it, but I want it to pay off in an environment where I can associate more easily with a greater number of people. Perhaps I am mistaken that an Ivy will provide that atmosphere more readily than a public like Michigan.</p>

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<p>plasmaprestige, you should definitely visit both universities. But do not assume that just because Michigan has strong athletic programs, that its students are one dimensional and focus exclusively on those sports to the exclusion of all else. </p>

<p>You will not find a more politically active student body at Penn than you will at Michigan. More students volunteer at the Peace Corps from Michigan than all but a handful of universities. In fact, President Kennedy announced his vision for the Peace Corps in front of the Michigan student union. </p>

<p><a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2012.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2012.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2011.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2011.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2010.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2010.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2009.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2009.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As for card games and video games, that’s a question of finding your own niche. With 27,000 undergrads and 1,400 student clubs and organizations, I am sure you will find many students who share similar hobbies to your own. Below are some links you may find interesting:</p>

<p>[Wolverine</a> Game Club](<a href=“U-M Web Hosting”>Wolverine Game Club)</p>

<p>[Student</a> Clubs | University of Michigan](<a href=“http://www.umich.edu/clubs.php#Politically]Student”>http://www.umich.edu/clubs.php#Politically) </p>

<p>[Student</a> Clubs | University of Michigan](<a href=“http://www.umich.edu/clubs.php#Performance]Student”>http://www.umich.edu/clubs.php#Performance)</p>

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<p>You make a good point.</p>

<p>Thank you very much for your postings in this thread. They have been tremendously helpful in my considerations. Like you said, I will ultimately need to visit Penn before making the most well-informed decision. I hope you don’t mind if I contact you here on CC in the future if I have questions (or post in this thread in the near-future).</p>

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<p>Sure. Anytime.</p>

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<p>Penn has a stronger student body and the ivy league edge. Michigan is good but I don’t think it is quite as nationally renowned or as prestigious as Penn. If finances are a concern I would go with the cheaper option. If not, I’d go with Penn. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

29

<p>I think Michigan is the clear choice here.</p>

<p>If you were looking for a more intellectual atmosphere, well, Penn isn’t really known for that either. Granted, it won’t be the same as a sports-crazy Big 10 school, but it won’t be like Chicago or Yale either.</p>

<p>Now, I don’t personally have experience with large public universities, but based on what I’ve read on other threads, I think it’s safe to say that while your intro (freshman/sophomore) classes will be pretty large, as you advance, your classes will get significantly smaller and you will get many more opportunities to interact with faculty. I’m sure your peers in your advanced bio classes will be very much on par with their Ivy League equivalents.</p>

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<p>^Another vote for Michigan.</p>

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<p>“Michigan is good but I don’t think it is quite as nationally renowned or as prestigious as Penn.”</p>

<p>Isn’t Penn the school that fired its head coach for allowing a pedophile to remain in the program? ;-)</p>

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<p>^that’s not nice, rjkofnovi</p>

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<p>Oh sorry. My mistake. The University of Pennsylvania must be the other large public school in that state. ;-)</p>

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<p>How do you figure that your COA at Penn will be about 35k if you don’t expect to receive financial aid?</p>

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<p>If you have other financial obligations to the family, then I think it’s a no brainer. I would choose Michigan. I think that of the Ivies, Penn had a more lively feel, more akin to a larger school (as it is compared to the other Ivies). But to pass up a scholarship like that would be very hard. And I understand the difficult choice- my son is choosing between WUSTL, JHU, and Michigan- no merit aid anywhere and no chance at any financial aid. He’s just trying to figure out where he will thrive academically and socially (not a party animal, just wants to have a great collegiate experience).</p>

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<p>^^^Must there be a petty rebuttal every time someone posts an opinion differing from your own?</p>

<p>If Michigan winds up significantly cheaper, I’d go there. If they are equal, I think Penn would be hard to pass up. More importantly, however, is fit. Where do you want to be OP? The two schools have two different feels.</p>

<p>In the grand scheme of things these two schools are going to offer you equally good educations.</p>

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<p>In my opinion, if you want a full collegiate experience, Michigan is hard to pass up. Unless Penn costs less, there really isn’t a significant advantage (sans Wharton) to attending the school. We all have our opinions. If we were talking about HYP, then of course that is where prestige really kicks in.</p>

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<p>I can see why Penn would be appealing being an uber-selective, ivy league school. Though, in the grand scheme of things I don’t think the education or weight of your degree at Michigan is going to be much inferior to that of Penn. Though I do know some people want to go to a school like Penn in part to feed their own ego. That is, being able to tell people they went to Penn/ivy league school. </p>

<p>Personally I think schools in this range aren’t dramatically different overal. If we were talking HYPSM or Chicago/Columbia, then it would be a different story.</p>

<p>Go where you want to go and where you could see yourself.</p>

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<p>I agree with Sam that your joke is in poor taste. The most ironic part you making that joke is that your own alma mater suffers from similar name confusion.</p>

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<p>I would have to agree with the majority of posters. Even if the costs were similar, I still would have chosen Michigan.</p>

<p>EDIT: I just checked the S:F ratio. Penn is purposely messing with the numbers. They only count undergraduate students (even though undergraduate students are the minority at Penn) in their measurement, and they include all of their faculty members. If they calculated it the same way as Michigan, their actual ratio is about ~13:1. Still a little bit better than Michigan, but definitely not day and night like Penn makes it seem.</p>