<p>That’s my point goldenboy. According to Knight2011, the entire ranking is based on selectivity. The USNWR is supposedly ranking universities according to overall academic excellence, which includes selelctivity. In terms of overall academic excellence, including selelctivity, Michigab should be ranked among the top 15. Clearly, the USNWR has it wrong.</p>
<p>^ I didnt say usnwr only goes off selectivity and sat scores but just a decent percentage does go into factoring the “best” schools.</p>
<p>with 4 engineering schools superior to mich and five as peers that would put mich on the high end of a top 10 engineering school (maybe 7,8,9 or 10) which I agree with. I would still argue that berkeley is superior to umich in engineering. </p>
<p>Gtown and notre dame’s sat scores as reported by college board are 1400 and 1440 respectively. Does anyone know where college board gets those scores? I always accepted them as truth…Also I wasn’t aware that emory fabricated their numbers. That is very interesting and i would expect them to drop a lot because of that. Also I think claremont mckenna fabricated numbers. </p>
<p>anyway, alaxandre I disagree with your main point that umich is a rival to penn, cornell, and northwestern. Maybe northwestern but Penn and cornell are a little out of reach. For graduate and professional school u mich does rival them but in undergrad it just doesn’t. </p>
<p>Lets break it down:
for pre-med…Penn and cornell have some of the most respected pre-medical studies, rivaling harvard, yale, and johns hopkins. Northwestern also has great numbers…all three have success rates higher than 80%. Umich has 60% success rate. </p>
<p>for business…clearly penn is the strongest. I would be tempted though to have cornell and mich tied as both very respected. Northwestern would ride the back of the bus to all the other ones in this field. </p>
<p>for pre-law, northwestern is top, penn would be second and cornell and mich would probably tie. Northwestern rivals georgetown and yale (law being both their top programs). </p>
<p>engineering, umich-cornell then northwestern and penn. </p>
<p>For over all “excellence”. Penn and northwestern have the highest SAT scores and most merit scholars per student. Penn and cornell are by far the most selective. </p>
<p>Umich only can really call itself a rival in business and engineering. In all other fields it struggles against the ivys and northwestern. The student body also is much more competitive and “intelligent” at penn, cornell, and northwestern than mich. Mich is the only one that can get thousands of its students to get plastered on a saturday afternoon for a football game ;)…the penn and cornell kids are too busy studying and the northwestern kids just cant watch defeat anymore so they too resort to studying. </p>
<p>Putting levity a side I would much rather take an orgo class competing against mich students than penn or cornell students.</p>
<p>how does cal engineering compare to michigan engineering, specifically in industrial engineering?</p>
<p>is cal berkeley similar to umich or is it better? can cal berkeley ever make it into the top 10 or should it be in the top 10?</p>
<p>“Umich only can really call itself a rival in business and engineering. In all other fields it struggles against the ivys and northwestern.”</p>
<p>I call complete bull**** on this poster.</p>
<p>“with 4 engineering schools superior to mich and five as peers that would put mich on the high end of a top 10 engineering school (maybe 7,8,9 or 10) which I agree with. I would still argue that berkeley is superior to umich in engineering.”</p>
<p>Brilliant analysis. UCB was one of the 4 engineering schools that was mentioned as being a bit stronger than Michigan. Thanks for the redundant comment. Any other words of wisdom?</p>
<p>Industrial engineering has been reduced to an MBA class. It’s not really taken seriously.</p>
<p>
Alexandre, I agree with you that schools like Wake Forest, USC, and possibly Emory and G’Town should be ranked below Michigan. However, calling it a top 15 undergraduate school is a stretch.</p>
<p>The 8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, UChicago, Northwestern, Caltech, Hopkins, and Duke rival or surpass Michigan in faculty quality in some places and are superior to it in almost any other statistical measure evaluating student body preparation and strength: SAT scores, graduation rates, financial resources, student to faculty ratios, etc. etc.</p>
<p>How can Michigan stand alongside Penn when the only statistic in a multifaceted ranking system that puts them as equals is the Peer Assessment rating? Penn also excels in the other 10 categories.</p>
<p>“The 8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, UChicago, Northwestern, Caltech, Hopkins, and Duke rival or surpass Michigan in faculty quality in some places…”</p>
<p>Another brilliant comment.</p>
<p>rjkofnovi calm down…mich is a good school just not top 15 caliber. In fact pretty much no ranking system has mich undergrad as top 15. Its a top 25-30 school, that is okay…Its tough for mich to compete against the elite privates because the privates can choose the “best” students from their appliant pool. Umich has 66% students from mich and as a state flagship school has to accept a high number of michigan applicants…Umich is sacrificing academics for in staters. I have many friends from the state of michigan that simply got accepted because they were in staters. That is clearly going to effect the numbers whereas a school like duke or penn does not have any obligations to accept lesser qualified applicants because of their geographic location.</p>
<p>yeah we should change that IS to OOS ratio</p>
<p>“Umich only can really call itself a rival in business and engineering. In all other fields it struggles against the ivys and northwestern.”</p>
<p>“Stuggles?” Once again, excessive hyperbole and complete rubbish. Why is it when trolls come to the Michigan board to diss the school, they always go overboard with their generalizations?</p>
<p>“In fact pretty much no ranking system has mich undergrad as top 15.”</p>
<p>Uhhh, what about the US News World Rankings where Michigan is #14? Does Villanova not teach its students how to properly research on the internet? ;)</p>
<p>[World’s</a> Best Universities; Top 400 Universities in the World | US News](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world]World’s”>http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world)</p>
<p>SoccerWolfP. That ranking is for the complete university, not just for undergrad. However in reality, without the USNWR and other rankings nonsense, Michigan is considered a world class institution of higher learning. Certainly more prestigious nationally and internationally than all but a few of the schools listed above it. In the grand scheme of academia, it is research and graduate programs that truly define prestige.</p>
<p>don’t worry about rjkofnovi</p>
<p>he’s a umich propagandist. he says everything at umich is the best.</p>
<p>Umich is a very good school and I decided to go there, but out of complete honestly, it is not like it’s number 1 in everything and objectively speaking, there is better out there, though it’s the best value for an in state student becuase you get an awesome education at a cheap price. as for out of state, i don’t think it’s worth it.</p>
<p>
Just checked CollegeBoard. Their current numbers posted are for the class entering 2011.</p>
<p>
Watch this video. Penn kids. Not so different than UMich lifestyle. And they definitely don’t look nerdier.
[I’m</a> Shmacked The Movie : Trailer #14 - University of Pennsylvania : Spring Fling Weekend - YouTube](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLytwL99Si8]I’m”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLytwL99Si8)
People party everywhere. BC, BU, Harvard, Northeastern, and plenty others all come to MIT to throw down. Dartmouth kids are in the middle of nowhere, so partying is the only source of entertainment. Brown is known for their cannabis culture(as well as UMich). Columbia was caught up in a drug ring sometime ago, distributing cocaine, LSD, adderall, ectasy, and marijuanna to other students. So UMich is definitely not alone.</p>
<hr>
<p>And even then it’s not healthy to get caught up in numbers. Look at any CC University Class of 2XXX Decision results, you can always say “this applicant” got accepted, but why didn’t “that applicant”? Some of my classmates let it get to their head when they get into a Top 15 college. For example, one of my friends will be attending Northwestern University(did early decision to WCAS) next year, and another will be at UMich, who was rejected by NU’s (MSEA regular decision). There’s a large difference applying to schools within college. The majority of my senior class will say that the UMich kid is clearly than her. Despite this, she still thinks she’s superior to each and every UMich student including him. No college defines a person’s value or success. The worst thing one can do is brag about their “prestigious” university and bash those who attend lower ranked ones. Doing so only exemplifies one’s own stupidity and arrogance. Remember statistics are based on population and cannot be applied to any individual.</p>
<p>“with 4 engineering schools superior to mich and five as peers that would put mich on the high end of a top 10 engineering school (maybe 7,8,9 or 10) which I agree with.”</p>
<p>Actually, with four engineering schools superior, that would put Michigan anywhere between 5 and 10. According to the latest USNWR undergraduate rankings, Michigan was #6. </p>
<p>“I would still argue that berkeley is superior to umich in engineering.”</p>
<p>Cal (Berkeley) is one of the four engineering programs I listed as being superior to Michigan in post #19 above.</p>
<p>“anyway, alaxandre I disagree with your main point that umich is a rival to penn, cornell, and northwestern. Maybe northwestern but Penn and cornell are a little out of reach”</p>
<p>As an alum of both Cornell and Michigan, I disagree with your opinion. Michigan and Cornell are identical in quality. </p>
<p>“for pre-med…Penn and cornell have some of the most respected pre-medical studies, rivaling harvard, yale, and johns hopkins. Northwestern also has great numbers…all three have success rates higher than 80%. Umich has 60% success rate.”</p>
<p>Michigan is actuallt one of the best places to go to college for premeds. Placement rates into medical school are meaningless without knowing the philosophy of the career office. Michigan will not discourage or forbid anybody from applying. At many universities, premeds with such 3.2 GPAs will be discouraged from applying to Medical school. Michigan has many 2.0-3.0 students applying to Medical school. If you compare students with similar GPAs and MCAT scores, Cornell, Michigan, Northwestern and Penn are all equally excellent places for undergrads interested in medical school thanks to their top notch science programs and the great many research and hospital internship opportunities on campus. Currently, Cornell has 16 alums enrolled at the JHU Medical program. Michigan and Penn have 12 each. Northwestern has 5. Between 1995-2011, Michigan and Northwestern each placed 48 alums into WUSTL Medical program. Cornell placed 46 while Penn placed 38. For some reason, a lot of Michigan undergrads choose to remain at the University of Michigan for Medical school. Of course, that is not a bad thing as the Michigan Medical program is among the top 10 in the nation. I think it is because undergrads at the University of Michigan love their experience and are reluctant to leave. At most elite Medical schools, you will typically find 50-70 alums enrolled in the program, which typically enrolls anywhere from 450 and 700 medical students. At the University of Michigan’s elite, top 10 Medical School, you have over 180 Michigan alumni enrolled out of 650 medical students. </p>
<p>[Who</a> Chooses WU](<a href=“http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx]Who”>http://medadmissions.wustl.edu/HowtoApply/selectionprocess/Pages/WhoChoosesWU.aspx)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/bin/u/p/SOMCatalog0910.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/bin/u/p/SOMCatalog0910.pdf</a></p>
<p>“for pre-law, northwestern is top, penn would be second and cornell and mich would probably tie. Northwestern rivals georgetown and yale (law being both their top programs).”</p>
<p>I am not sure where you got this information. Georgetown and Northwestern both have excellent Law schools and both have excellent placement records into top Law schools, but they cannot match Yale in either of those two domains. In fact, in both the quality of their Law schools and in their placement success into top Law programs, Georgetown and Northwestern are on par with Cornell, Michigan and Penn, not better. At Yale Law School, there are currently 21 Penn alums enrolled, 13 Cornell alums, 12 Michigan alums, 5 Georgetown alums, 4 Emory alums and 2 Notre Dame alums. At the University of Chicago Law School, there are currently 21 Northwestern alums, 11 Georgetown alums, 9 Michigan alums, 9 Notre Dame alums, 5 Penn alums. Again, just as with Medical schools, most elite law schools enroll anywhere from 30-60 of their own undergraduate alums. Michigan enrolls ~150 alums (~50 annually) in its elite, top 10 Law school. </p>
<p><a href=“Welcome | Office of the University Printer”>Welcome | Office of the University Printer;
<p><a href=“Course Catalogs | University Registrar”>Course Catalogs | University Registrar;
<p>One thing is clear, Cornell, Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, Notre Dame and Penn are not more effective at placing undergrads in top graduate programs than Michigan.</p>
<p>“Umich only can really call itself a rival in business and engineering. In all other fields it struggles against the ivys and northwestern.”</p>
<p>Are you sure about this? Have you looked at department ratings? Michigan usually does quite well in the “traditional disciplines”. In fact, very few universities can match Michigan’s college of LSA. Below are some of the latest rankings in the traditional disciplines:</p>
<p>BIOLOGY
Cornell #11
Michigan #20
Penn #20
Northwestern #26
Emory #34
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 50
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 50</p>
<p>CHEMISTRY
Northwestern #7
Cornell #10
Michigan #16
Penn #19
Emory #38
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 50
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 50</p>
<p>COMPUTER SCIENCE
Cornell #5
Michigan #13
Penn #17
Northwestern #35
Emory Not ranked among the top 40
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 40
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 40</p>
<p>EARTH SCIENCES
Michigan #9
Cornell #12
Emory Not ranked among the top 30
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 30
Northwestern Not ranked among the top 30
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 30
Penn Not ranked among the top 30</p>
<p>ECONOMICS:
Northwestern #8
Penn #9
Michigan #12
Cornell #18
Emory Not ranked among the top 30
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 30
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 30</p>
<p>ENGLISH
Penn #4
Cornell #7
Michigan #13
Northwestern #20
Emory #26
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 30
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 30</p>
<p>HISTORY
Michigan #7
Penn #9
Cornell #12
Northwestern #14
Emory #28
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 30
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 30</p>
<p>MATHEMATICS
Michigan #8
Cornell #13
Northwestern #16
Penn #18
Emory Not ranked among the top 40
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 40
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 40</p>
<p>PHYSICS
Cornell #7
Michigan #11
Penn #17
Northwestern #30
Emory Not ranked among the top 40
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 40
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 40</p>
<p>POLITICAL SCIENCE
Michigan #4
Cornell #20
Northwestern #21
Emory #28
Penn #28
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 30
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 30</p>
<p>PSYCHOLOGY
Michigan #3
Penn #11
Cornell #17
Northwestern #17
Emory Not ranked among the top 30
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 30
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 30</p>
<p>SOCIOLOGY
Michigan #3
Northwestern #9
Penn #11
Cornell #17
Emory Not ranked among the top 30
Georgetown Not ranked among the top 30
Notre Dame Not ranked among the top 30</p>
<p>Like I said, Michigan’s academic peers are not Emory, Georgetown or Notre Dame, but rather, Cornell, Northwestern and Penn.</p>
<p>“The 8 Ivies, Stanford, MIT, UChicago, Northwestern, Caltech, Hopkins, and Duke rival or surpass Michigan in faculty quality in some places”</p>
<p>By and large, Michigan’s faculty is generally rated well among the top 10, with room to spare. Only 4-5 universities have better faculties while another 4-5 can match it. </p>
<p>“and are superior to it in almost any other statistical measure evaluating student body preparation and strength: SAT scores, graduation rates, financial resources, student to faculty ratios, etc. etc.”</p>
<p>SAT scores? You mean like Emory, adding 20-30 points to the superscore of each section, inflating their mean SAT from 1370 to 1420? I have been saying it for years now that private universities lie and manipulate their data to make themselves look good. You are truly naive if you think Emory was alone in that practice. When adjusted for superscoring and “fuzzy math”, I doubt many universities have significantly higher SAT/ACT ranges than Michigan. Brown and Cornell have virtually identical ACT ranges as Michigan (29-33 vs 28-32), and their SAT ranges, once adjusted for super scoring, are not much higher either.</p>
<p>Graduation rates are fairly standard across the board. Michigan graduates 90% of its undergrads. Chicago, Cornell, Northwestern and most other Michigan peers graduate between 92% and 94% of their undergrads. </p>
<p>when it comes to resources, Michigan is hard to beat. At $7.8 billion, its endowment is the 6th largest in the US. Even on a per student basis and without factoring economies of scale, it is among the top 25 research universities, and that does not include the $300 million that Michigan receives in state appropriations. Financially, only HYPSM and a couple other schools are truly better off than Michigan. No way are there more than 15 universities that are better off than Michigan financially. </p>
<p>Student to faculty ratios depend on how universities measure them. Michigan’s ratio stands at 15:1, but that includes graduate students enrolled in the college of Engineering, Architecture, Nursing, Music, the Business school and LSA departments. Most private universities completely omit graduate students. If they added graduate students, their student to faculty ratios at private elites will jump from 7:1 to 11:1 or worse, giving them similar ratios as Michigan. Just for fun, check section I in any private university common data set (Duke Harvard, Caltech, etc…), and compare them to section I of Michigan’s CDS and you will see exactly what I am talking about. There is something called integrity. Michigan has it, I am not so sure about Michigan’s private peers. Some private universities, like Caltech, Chicago, Columbia, Harvard and Stanford, graduate students outnumber undergrads. To not include them in student to faculty ratios is truly misleading.</p>
<p>I look forward to the investigations that will eventually hit all campuses. Trust me, after Emory’s scandal, those investigations will hit hard.</p>
<p>For now, I repeat, Michigan is a legitimate top 15 university for undergraduate education. As a university overall, Michigan is among the top 10.</p>
<p>"don’t worry about rjkofnovi</p>
<p>he’s a umich propagandist. he says everything at umich is the best.</p>
<p>Umich is a very good school and I decided to go there, but out of complete honestly, it is not like it’s number 1 in everything and objectively speaking, there is better out there,…"</p>
<p>Please point to my posts where I say, “everything at umich is the best ?”</p>
<p>Once again I am not the one who is using superlative posts to make my points. I am not the one constantly going into other top school’s forums to remind everyone that Michigan isn’t that good as compared to dozens of other schools.</p>
<p>i’m just saying, from what I noticed rjkofnovi always argues about the U of M being so great. It’s a great school, but I’m just saying, if you’re being realistic, you shouldn’t argue about it all the time. </p>
<p>Also, unfortunately, Berkeley is a better public school although by how much is debatable. It’s not really worth going to berkeley out of state, just like how it isn’t worth going to u of m out of state. public schools were designed to be of the people, by the people, and for the people of the state!</p>
<p>fouinybaby, your comment regarding 'novi was out of line. Novi is proud of his school, but he acknowledges and respects other universities. </p>
<p>I am also not sure how you figure that it is not worth going to a public university of you are out of state. Are you saing that it is worth paying $50,000/year to attend Cornell, Johns Hopkins or Northwestern but not Cal, Michigan or UVA? Academically, those 6 universities are equal, providing undergrads with identical access to resources as well as equally strong educational and social opportunities. Why single out public universities? </p>
<p>Anyway, below are answers to your questions:</p>
<p>“how does cal engineering compare to michigan engineering, specifically in industrial engineering?”</p>
<p>Cal is one of four universities that have better Engineering programs than Michigan. Cal’s college of Engineering is generally ranked between #2 and #4 while Michigan’s is generally ranked between #5 and #9. The difference is negligible, but it is nevertheless valid. In Industrial Engineering, Michigan and Cal are pretty much equal. Michigan is stronger than Cal in Aerospace Engineering, Biomedical Engineering and Nuclear Engineering while Cal is better than Michigan in Chemical Engineering, Civil Engineering, Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering. Michigan and Cal are pretty much equal in Materials Science Mechanical Engineering. </p>
<p>"is cal berkeley similar to umich or is it better? can cal berkeley ever make it into the top 10 or should it be in the top 10? "</p>
<p>Cal is the only public university is the country that is better than Michigan in terms of raw academic quality. Cal’s faculty is among the top 3 in the World, while Michigan’s is among among the top 10 but not among the top 5. However, Michigan is in significantly better financial shape and I consider the undergraduate experience at Michigan better than the one at Cal. Overall, at the undergraduate level, I would rank Cal somewhere between #6 and #9 while Michigan somewhere between #11 and #17. So, to answer your question, Cal and Michigan are very close to each other in quality, with Cal having the slight edge in academics but Michigan having the slight edge in intangibles. Cal is indeed a top 10 university, as it should be. Only in the USNWR college rankings is Cal not ranked among the top 10. In academic and corporate circles, Cal is a top 10 university, as it always has been.</p>