<p>This is for anyone who has visited or knows students/alumni from Dartmouth, Duke or Yale. We are very middle class -- two public school teachers -- and we are concerned about whether our daughteer would fit in at these schools. She has applied to all three for next fall. If we can afford to send her, it will be quite a financial stretch. She will not have a car or much money for expensive social activities. Here is our concern. Are most students rich and/or snobby? Do they go on lots of expensive weekend outings? Would a sweet, middle class girl feel left out? We are from a smallish Southern California community and I think our daughter cannot imagine the wealth and social connections of many students at Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>Hi fiskelove~</p>
<p>My son is a sophomore at Duke this year. He is the oldest of six children from a middle class family of 8 on one income. Duke, like any similar school, has all kinds of kids from all kinds of backgrounds. My son has felt pefectly at home there and has made friends of all varieties---differing ethnicities, races, religions, and socioeconomic statuses. He has made incredibly warm, loyal, and interesting friends there whom he values as the individuals they are, just as they value him, not for what he HAS or doesn't, but for WHO he is. </p>
<p>I can't say that I didn't share similar concerns to the ones you've expressed, but those concerns proved to be unfounded. My son has always marched to his own drummer and continues to do that now. </p>
<p>My son does not have a car at school (no problem, as many of his friends do), and he doesn't have an excessive amount of money to spend on activities. Yet, he has always found ways to have a marvelous time, and he very much enjoys his active social life at Duke.</p>
<p>I hope that this eases some of your concerns. I'm sure your daughter would find the same at this amazing school! :)</p>
<p>~berurah
p.s. BEST OF LUCK to your D!!!!</p>
<p>I can only speak from direct knowledge about Dartmouth, which my son attended on heavy financial aid and graduated from in June. I'm sure our income level is below yours. There are plenty of wealthy kids. This is mitigated at Dartmouth by the fact that there simply is no place around to spend much money. Most activities are on campus and are free or available at nominal cost. Cars aren't much of an advantage, so I don't recall seeing expensive cars. Expensive clothes aren't a symbol there, either.
My son only realized the wealth of some kids families when he visited them, or from the occasional anecdote.
He had a great time at Dartmouth in every way and the vast majority of students there are down-to-earth, friendly and fun-loving.</p>
<p>D is in her second year at Yale.</p>
<p>"Are most students rich and/or snobby?"</p>
<p>I am sure there are students that are rich and/or snobby, but all the kids I have met are nice, smart, dedicated and focused. They do all sorts of different things, but they all love Yale.</p>
<p>"Do they go on lots of expensive weekend outings?"</p>
<p>D and her friends do not do expensive weekend outings. For the most part, they are way too busy.</p>
<p>"Would a sweet, middle class girl feel left out?"</p>
<p>No - she will find many kids in the exact same situation. She will find groups that interest her and she will focus her efforts in those areas. She will find many interesting, exciting things to spend her time on.</p>
<p>Good luck to your D.</p>
<p>Although I can only provide very second-hand advice, I think you will find it helpful...</p>
<p>My parents were very middle class/working class students at Princeton in the early 70's. They had very little money for luxuries of any sort (they both worked on and around campus). This was before the era of big financial aid, so they really had to stretch and take out big (for the time) loans to cover expenses. They also had no interest (or money) towards joining the eating clubs there, so by all accounts you would think that they were outsiders. But they weren't...they had plenty of friends and plenty of fun, and were never bothered by their low social standing. Moral of the story...even at colleges avowed/reviled for their elitism/wealthy culture, normal students can be perfectly happy. And this was 35+ years ago--I would imagine that these places are a lot less snobby now. I will say this: neither of my parents (or I) are made of easily intimidated stock. But I think that it would be a shame to let a few snobby rich kids scare you or your daughter away--remember: for every kid who comes from a family that can pay out of pocket for these schools (and just being able to pay does not a snob make), there is another kid receiving some sort of financial aid, right down to having everything paid for. There will always be people with money and connections--their power is only oppressive when you allow it to become as such.</p>
<p>I only know two kids personally who went to Duke--one on a full athletic scholarship (both parents teachers) and one on a full merit scholarship (deceased mother, single father, one of 4 children). Both seemed to enjoy their time there--I never asked about this issue but no complaints along this line were ever mentioned by the students or their families. (The only adjustment problem I heard about was the athlete who had been the big fish in the little pond here and had to adjust to the "little fish" there).</p>
<p>Of my closest friends from my singing group at Harvard, one is the son of two public school teachers and another the son of an enlisted Marine and a babysitter. Both were very comfortable socially and made tons of lifelong friends (including me ;) ).</p>
<p>I think that at all of these schools, if you are a social climber, and you feel the need to be accepted by the most popular, golden-child crowd on campus (e.g., if you will feel a need to be in the "best" sorority at Duke), you may have real problems without a lot of money and the right prep school background. But that crowd is maybe 5-10% of each campus. If what you're looking for socially is to find a bunch of soulmates and have a fabulous time together, being middle class is no impediment whatsoever at any of those schools.</p>
<p>^^^Exactly. The only reason that your Daughter would find herself socially unhappy because of her middle class background would be if she could not stand to be less than the queen of the campus. From your description of her, this does not seem to describe her personality. Plus, if you let a few snobs turn you off, you are going to be out of luck almost everywhere, in almost every situation--snobs exist at every level and avenue of society.</p>
<p>Discomfort can also be a source of learning - it most definitely was for me. (You'd have to be pretty blind not to see the differences between the haves and have-nots, but it is not in vogue for the haves to flaunt it, except when it comes to expensive liquor.)</p>
<p>My sister is at Dartmouth. She has friends all over the financial spectrum. At Dartmouth most entertainment is free, and cars aren't the norm. The only time money differences are more apparent, my sister says, are times of gift-giving (such as Christmas or birthdays) and travel (such as parents who can't afford to travel to Family Weekend). She says her friends give gifts within the amount each feels comfortable spending, and the parents who can come up to visit take the other girls out for dinner. People seem to get along without considering each other's finances.</p>
<p>For some interesting reading on the subject of middle class students at
elite schools, see the recent thread on "Class Divide" re: Amherst's attempts to address it through finaid.</p>
<p>That said, I'm also a teacher and my H a clergy, so that makes us decidedly middle-class. My kids have enjoyed friends from other class backgrounds, richer and poorer than themselves. They envy the "toys" of the rich but not their angst; wish they could join them on overseas spring break vacations but also tell us that having an emotionally vibrant household (we do!) to come back to trumps all that. And in the end, they emerge very hardworking but appreciative of knowing some kids with resources, too. Don't worry, really. Watching the rich play is a growth experience.</p>
<p>p.s. 2 of my kids went to Amherst and Oberlin</p>
<p>My niece is a sophomore at Princeton (arguably the most socially conscious Ivy.) Grew up in a middle class Southern California suburb. Daughter of 2 school teachers. Loves Princeton, has lots of friends, feels at ease socially. Frankly, she was more intimidated by the kids' achievements, both academic and personal, "They're all such go-getters," she marveled.</p>
<p>Our older son is at Dartmouth, and I echo the sentiments shared above. As a full-pay family all of our money goes toward college and private HS costs. Most of son's friends come from academic families -- a dad who is a professor, one who is a school superintendent, some recent immigrants, and some foreign students. Some of his friends are clearly well-off, but it doesn't seem to affect them in any way -- they are all just really great, down to earth kids. Most stay on campus for entertainment, and they don't have cars.</p>
<p>I do have one wealthy friend who has an older child at Dartmouth. But you'd never know it if you met this kid -- holes in the sneakers, usual uniform of frayed jeans, t-shirt and fuzzy jacket. Many of the kids are outdoorsy, and I think it wouldn't go over well to be all "princessy." They tend to be modest about their academic achievements, and boasting isn't cool.</p>
<p>I think your daughter would fit in very well.</p>
<p>We know families with kids at several of the schools mentioned above, and have never heard any mention of snobbery or exclusion based on a student's financial situation. There are many factors that come into play making friends or finding a "niche," but I doubt money is a very important one. It makes me think back to some of those bad 80's movies with the stereotypical evil rich preppies wearing sweaters over their shoulders :)</p>
<p>I have to admit that when we first started looking we were curious about some of the small LACs that had lots of students from prep school backgrounds. Would the private and public school kids mix OK, have many interests in common, etc? From what we've been told, it doesn't seem to be an issue. Once they set foot on campus it's a new experience for ALL of them. Our S. attends a small public HS and is very excited about the prospect of meeting students from 'all over.' Good luck!</p>
<p>LOL, as teachers you'll appreciate this. At orientation, I saw a parent wearing a teachers union sweatshirt, so went over to strike up conversation in my comfort zone. Turns out, he was a top lawyer for the union.</p>
<p>p.s. and we had a wonderful conversation. So maybe that's a model for what people are talking about here. Learning, in most cases, cuts through the class differences, and you sure can't tell who's who by the clothing!</p>
<p>An interesting article on the subject. It can be an issue, not one that can't be overcome, but food for thought.</p>
<p>My son attends a 'comparable institution.' We pay full fare and if we chose could also buy him a car, send him here and there, etc. We don't. We pay room, board, books and travel home for holidays. He pays for fun and games and any extras from his summer and term earnings. He has 3 suitemates, 2 of whom have parents who I guess are both affluent, and more generous than we are. Our son has enjoyed the challenge of trying to make it on the money he earns, he doesn't ask us for more or feel badly about not having it. Last semester when he ran out of funds for food(! - he chose to go off meal plan, we gave him the money instead)- before the end of the semester, he did 2 psychology experiments and made enough to tide him over. </p>
<p>The reality might be that for whatever reason a student might have less money than some of their classmates. The choice to learn from it, make the best of it, find ways to cleverly adapt to it is up to the child themself.</p>
<p>So, you can probably answer the question about your child yourself. Will your child see their situation with humor or misery if they are so fortunate to find themselves in it?</p>
<p>In the 'olden days' when many of us were in college there were huge affluence gaps as well. In those days the most affluent kids were the ones who wore the oldest docksiders and the rattiest izod shirts. Except, of course, for the ones whose parents were using them as pawns in a divorce or custody battle- they had everything.....</p>
<p>I don’t want to hijack this thread but my D (h/s junior) is interested in two of the three schools listed in the OP. I have similar concerns for her - being a shy, Af Am and coming from a small rural h/s. I feel confident about her academic success but social fit is another matter.</p>