“I am sorry that you cannot afford your child’s education. It is a fear almost all of us share.”
A tad bit angry and condescending - don’t you think? but, it’s okay. I can take it.
I don’t care what rationalizations anyway creates. If a school gives tuition and board to a large group of students - that is a cost in their annual budget. This, the parents who are full pays are subsidizing the financial aid pool. This is an undeniable fact. Doesn’t matter if the school pulls some money or a lot of money from the endowment - the full pays are subsidizing the FA students.
Econ 101.
That being said - nobody is forcing the parents to choose elite schools where they pay full price.
“Approximately five percent of US families have an income between 150k and 200k and approximately 10% of Yale students are from those families. I don’t see the problem. They appear to be over represented by a factor of 2.”
You need to count percents of Yale-worthy students and not the percents of all students. Among Yale students this demographics is heavily underrepresented.
Over 200Ks are over represented. Family net worth over 1B is even more over represented.
Ok, I just googled “income of families that attend Yale”. The median income of families at Yale comes out as $192,600. 19% of families make $630,000 or more. So let’s not pretend that these expensive private schools are really accessible to everyone and their demographics is representative of the general population. I’m going to encourage my donut kid to not even bother applying to elite meet needs/no merit school despite having a profile that may have a shot. We cannot play the ED game.
Labeling a school as “meets need” is not really accurate for many and a marketing gimmick.
I’d prefer the EFC to be based on some reasonable income percentage across the board. Like 10%. Private schools already are computing their own EFC so they could continue to do so but if families have more reasonable options with the option to compare offers, that might change the game a bit. I also think the ED process definitely serves schools the best and I’m not a fan of it. Being able to price compare puts power into the hands of consumers. It may encourage a wider variety of schools to have unique opportunities for high stat applicants as well.
What exactly does Yale-worthy mean? I assume that they are perfectly represented among Yale-worthy students since they are at Yale, and really it’s up to Yale to decide who is Yale-worthy is who is not, right?
^The distribution of “Yale-worthy” students is going to skew to the higher-SES demographics.
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@austinmshauri
“I’m not clear what changes “donut hole” families would like to see. You can’t want colleges to increase the upper income limit in their aid eligibility calculations so that your income falls within the limits because that would still be the tiered system that you so despise. Are you saying there should be no discounts at all? The kid whose family income is $40k should pay the same as one whose income is $180k? How do you envision that working out at a college whose COA is $60k/year?”
I think what some donut hole families/middle class might like to see is uniformity of pricing regardless of your income, just like in every other sector of commerce. I previously gave an example of a person wanting to buy a Mercedes. But how about a house instead? A person wants to buy an expensive house. He/she can easily afford it and pays cash. Next person wants to buy the same exact model house in the same subdivision which has same price tag. But this buyer isn’t as wealthy. So the buyer purchases the house with a cash down payment and covers the rest with a loan. Next buyer wants the same house model, same price, down the road slightly. This person must decide- does he/she extend himself and put down a small amount of cash with a larger loan or elect to buy a smaller or less expensive house that they can afford. Yup- that’s how life works in every other aspect of commerce in the US. it’s called living within your means.
If someone can’t afford to pay for a given college tuition rate, why not have those parents and students take out loans, to the extent that they can qualify, or go to a less expensive college, such as an in-state or cc? We all have to make choices in life and live within our means. College should be no different. Some of us can afford nicer cars and bigger homes, etc. The structuring of college financing discriminates unfairly against the middle class. Instead of being able to save their hard-earned money, they are forced to take out student loans to pay for college, prolong their worklife to save for retirement, and struggle and worry about how they will have to pay back their debt after graduation. The student and family who receives a nice FA package because they can’t really afford to pay for the college tuition at the school they want to attend doesn’t have to worry about the stress of paying back that loan. And it is a zero sum game, even including university endowments. If all students paid the same price for college the tuition prices would necessarily be lower, as middle and UMC wouldn’t be subsidizing costs for those receiving FA. If they weren’t being given FA, the extra money paid to the colleges by the less affluent would result in a lower overall sticker price for tuition for all applicants. The extra money has to go somewhere and it would necessarily end up lowering prices.
Paying for college should be just like paying for a new home or anything else in life. There is no reasonable justification to have this special carve-out for college education. I hope @PurpleTitan and @DiotimaDM aren’t going to try to tell people on this board that most home builders and car salesman offer a different pricing level for their homes and cars ( like they say Panera bread does for lunch). But maybe they will- maybe one of you will try to classify “Habitat for Humanity” homes as an example of a home builder that charges different pricing for the poor. Yeah, right? That’s exactly the same thing, isn’t it? That’s just what colleges do- they’re like Habitat for Humanity, but only for education. Yeah, that’s the ticket. It’s the same thing!
I’m going to limit my comments to private colleges. Private colleges are non-profits, and can do whatever they like with their resources. They have determined that their mission is to educate, and that for the good of our greater community, it is non-optimal to have a permanent underclass (even more than we ultimately do) that can never attain the professional accomplishments that more well-to-do people can. With the system in place currently (with that “unfair” pricing), it is quite possible that the emergency room doctor, the immigration lawyer, the state representative, the Google engineer, the author on the NY Times best-seller list, came from the ranks of the poor. Perhaps not probable, given all the other disadvantages of growing up poor, but at least possible.
And if you think that the truly poor can “just go to a state school” I don’t think you really understand the limitations of their finances.
I’m happy with that, and we were upper-middle-class full pay at privates. Of course we saved like hell to do that.
So this is your solution? Shut lower income families out of all but the local commuter school or cc? I’ll agree with you that life is about choices. The choices elite schools are giving “donut hole” families is to take out loans – to the extent that you can qualify – or go to a less expensive college. I’m not clear why this option is palatable for low income families but not acceptable when applied to you.
I also don’t understand why you think low income families should take on $160k or more of debt so you don’t have to, but I disagree that their doing so will drive prices down. I work at a selective university and extra money, no matter what the source, won’t force a drop in tuition. Professors and staff still have to be paid. Buildings have to be updated. Even if prices did drop $10-15k, the only people who stand to benefit are “donut holes” families who would save $40-60k over 4 years. Why would any college change their policies to save full pay families $40-60k each at not only their expense but to the very real detriment of the low income families they’ve made it their mission to serve?
Rutgers tells you to check the following URL https://www.njtransfer.org/artweb/chgri.cgi
and when you plug in a calculus class at one of the community colleges, you get that Rutgers School of Engineering will only give you general elective credits for this course. We went to the open house and Rutgers Engineering is very clear on this point.
I will not argue this further. My point remains that you have to plan very carefully when taking the CC route to ensure your credits will transfer.
Transfer from Raritan Valley Community College
Course Effective FALL 2001 -
Course ID: MATH151 Title: CALCULUS I
Minimum Credits: 04.00 Maximum Credits: 04.00
GenEd Area(s): MATHEMATICS
Course Status: Active Repeatable for Additional Credits: N
Transfer to Rutgers-School of Engineering
Evaluation Effective FALL 2001 -
Equivalency: 01640151 “R43” (CALCULUS FOR MATHEMATICAL AND PHYSIC) Minimum Grade: C
Minimum Credits: 04.00 Maximum Credits: 04.00 Transferable: Y
GenEd Area(s):
Foot Note: R43 Effective fall 2016, entering First-Year students to the School of Engineering will only receive general elective credits for this course.
Does Rutgers have a math placement exam for incoming students? If so it would be interesting to know if most kids pass into the next level math (after Calc 1).
CC placement is tricky. 17 yrs ago in a distant city, the university director of freshman writing studied writing placement rates for CC transfers. Some CCs had solid rates, but one (private) had never had a transfer student pass the placement exam.
I don’t believe this applies directly to Rutgers, but it is suggestive of the difficulty of articulation for both sides. Courses don’t match up, and if learning outcomes are too different, students can’t proceed.
There might not be different prices for the same house, but I believe there are apartments that are based on income. After many hours of research I am finding that there are very few options for free college for poor students, except for those very few that can get a sports scholarship or can gain admission into a meets full need school which are extremely competitive. My son is a junior and has always been a solid student(all A’s since 1st grade except a couple of B’s in 10th grade in Spanish II), lots of EC’s, but only has a 24 on the ACT(which is one of the better scores at his school). We are waiting on results of when they took the ACT at school in March, but if he can’t raise his score significantly then it looks like there will be very few options for him. The nearest CC is an hour away, even if he commutes and is able to cover the cost with scholarships and grants, what about the next 2 years? I have run the NPC on several public universities in our state and neighboring states and all are coming up with a huge gap, even after pell grant, Stafford loans, etc.
He is near the top of his class but it is a small rural school, no AP’s, highest level math will be pre-calculus senior year. I am not saying it is someone else’s responsibility to send him to college, but the fact is that there are many students like that who can’t even afford the cheapest schools without financial aid, so society will not only potentially be losing out on the contributions that those students could have made in their fields, but perpetuating poverty. At least my son has a lot of support(family, friends, church) and parents with degrees, even I can’t afford to pay for his college at least I can encourage and advise. I can’t imagine what it would take for someone who doesn’t have any of that to manage getting a degree all on their own.
What field(s) is he interested in?
Her are some colleges:
https://www.bestcollegereviews.org/features/8-colleges-where-students-attend-for-free/
Some have missions to give poor kids a chance.
The University of London also offers very cheap degrees (British system, distance, self-study; you essentially sign up for tests) in some fields.
He is undecided, but likely engineering or healthcare. Specifically mentioned have been petroleum or chemical engineering, and nursing. Generally he does well in math and science without much effort, Spanish was hard for him but it was also an online ACCESS class which was another issue, since he is used to having an actual teacher and classroom(and small classes). The school has faster internet access but the speeds available to normal households in our area aren’t very fast, definitely not good for streaming video, and at this point I really don’t think he is ready for independent study.
Most heading off to 4 year Us shouldn’t be - nowhere near college ready. High schools give 50% of seniors an A average GPA - grade inflation is conning parents. Test scores and college readiness rates haven’t gone up. 40% of kids fail out of college, most of the rest take 5 6 7 yrs to finish a bachelors.
About time parents wake up and stop giving immature children an undeserved $25,000+ per yr vacation. Live at home, earn As for at least 3 semesters at a local CC, then grant them a ticket to a 4 year. But this whole every kid with a B or C GPA and crummy ACT goes off to a $25,000+ per yr university is insanity.
@npkro1 I have been mulling over your argument that higher education is the only area where price varies by income. I believe you are looking at the wrong way. The price of college is the price, but because it is a vital resource, lower income families receive aid to help cover the cost. This is really no different from food stamps, medicaid and housing subsidies. The price of food is the price, but the poor get subsidies to defray the cost.
I don’t believe this is true at all. We think of ourselves as consumers of college services. To a degree, ,we are. However, we are also the college’s raw material. They need a steady influx of students to continue to create the product — educated graduates who will reflect well on the school in the years to come. The school decides what kind of raw materials it wants, just as in any other industry. They want a mix of inputs, from a variety of backgrounds, locales, cultures, ethnicity etc. They are willing to pay more (or lower the price in this case) to obtain a certain kind of raw material. If they were somehow prevented from bidding for the kind of students they want, it doesn’t mean they would suddenly start bidding more for the others. They might just as well fill the class with more full pay students. highly educated accomplished rich kids are not hard to find. Harvard would have no problem filling its class with qualified full pay students if they chose to do so.
@HeartofDixie - during one of our college visits, we had an extremely personable and upbeat tour guide mention in an off hand way that she was living at home to save money and that meant making a 1 1/2 hour commute each way to/from school (3 hours round trip). She also had a job on campus to help make ends meet. Her goal was to finish college with little or no debt. After graduation she plans on going to med school. There is no doubt in my mind that she’s going to do it, either.
Every now and again I think of that young woman and realize that what would seem so impossible to most of us, is a reality for someone else.
I would advise your son to take the SAT and see if he gets a better score on that if he hasn’t done so already. Have him do Kahn Academy test prep and practice tests or see if your school offers test prep classes.
@HeartofDixie, are there nusring or other health science associate degrees at the CC near him?