"Middle College"

Parents Forum
1

This was news to me when I read about it this morning, but I’m guessing lots of people in the CC community know of similar programs and maybe even have personal experience with them.

https://www.inquirer.com/education/parkway-middle-college-philadelphia-high-school-community-20190728.html
Basically, it’s a public high school that exists to feed its students into the local community college. In 11th and 12th grades, they take all their courses at the community college, and get their high school and AA degrees simultaneously. The school prepares them for that experience in 9th and 10th grades (and they pick up some college credits then, too), and it provides additional support and some traditional high school elements (prom, sports teams) in the upper grades.

I am not certain what I think about the idea. At first blush, it seems like a great way to address the uselessness of conventional high school currently and the high cost of college to low-income students. But it may be little more than a clever way to tap into another funding stream and less costly infrastructure requirements, and not really sustainable other than on a very small scale. (Note something that would be obvious to most local readers, and that the article assumes “everyone” knows: This is not a school for kids whose ambition is to go to Harvard, or Penn, or anywhere like that. Those kids are at Masterman and SLAC – and a few other public schools – which are mentioned in the article as far more selective in their admissions.)

2

My school district has a middle college option for I believe 30 students per year for 11th and 12th grade. They take English and social studies together as a class both years on the community college campus plus 2 other courses each semester of their choice. The students in this group range from highly gifted kids who are fed up socially with the regular high school scene to very average students looking for alternative options. Some students stay at the CC for a 3rd year to get an AA and then transfer to a CSU or UC and some go to a 4 year university after the first 2 years. I think this is fairly common in California… not sure if all of the community college districts offer it but I think quite a lot of them do.

3

They have this in NJ as well. I only know of 1 person who did it. She went to Northeastern upon graduating.

4

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Does Community College of Philadelphia offer course work that is fully accepted for transfer credit and/or advanced placement at four year schools? (if it were not for some four year schools’ rules against credit for dual enrollment courses) If so, then what prevents a student in this program from aiming for the most selective four year schools, if they do well in all of the usual ways?

However, the students in this program are probably better prepared for college in one particular way: they already have experience with self-management in college courses. This may be the biggest transition from the highly-supervised environment of high school that many new college frosh encounter, and which some stumble on. Having already made that transition while under high school supervision and assistance, these students are ahead of the game in that respect.

5

We have something similar for our area. You must apply and test in, but generally the top ~30-40 kids from the city-county enroll. They don’t go to the community college campus, but to the “Institute”(probably our nicest building in our City lol) for half the day. They take Math, English, Science, and also Stats/research. Senior year they do a research project/technical paper that they must present to a panel. All classes are DE and definitely harder than the AP classes at the local HS. (One must note that our local HS is ranked at the bottom of the state, so I’m sure our APs aren’t at the same level as other areas. 4s and 5s are extremely rare at this school.)

If you go to an in-state public school, it’s wonderful. The program is completely free, the students get to leave the regular school campus and are treated like adults. S19 already has 57 credits without taking or spending $$$ for a single AP test. Some won’t count toward anything in particular, but he already has most of his GE classes checked off. S16 is at a private LAC in our state. His school would only accept a max of 28 credits. He had over 80 to choose from various sources, but I believe they did take his DEs for Science and English (his least favorite subjects). It is also a win for our local HS, because the kids still take the state mandated standardized tests at the local high school and help boost the scores. Every little bit helps. And without this program, most of these kids would find an alternative school.

6

One thing students should note is that college courses taken while in high school do count when applying to graduate or professional school (including law or medical school), or transfer to another undergraduate college, whether or not the college matriculated to after high school graduation accepts them for transfer credit. 60 credits of A grades can be a nice boost to the college GPA, but 60 credits of B and C grades can be a drag for any aspiring lawyer or physician.

7

I don’t know all the ins and outs of credit recognition, but Community College of Philadelphia is a quality institution with, generally, an excellent faculty. I would be very surprised if there wasn’t full (or nearly full) recognition of credit by any college in the PASSHE system (the “directional” public universities), which is where most of these kids would be heading if they went to college anywhere. There could be gaps in credit transfer for Penn State, Temple, or Pitt, or the more established Catholic colleges. Most of the smaller private or religious colleges in the area compete fiercely for students who want to complete their degrees; I don’t have the impression that they refuse to recognize lots of credits.

8

Temple does list transfer equivalency for 831 courses from Community College of Philadelphia, although some are listed as electives in the subject: https://tuportal5.temple.edu/apps/tup/Public/TransferRules/ . It does looks like the typical sequenced courses like math, sciences, and foreign languages, as well as common introductory level courses in subjects like economics and political science, are accepted as such.

But it looks like transfer credit to Penn State is spottier: https://public.lionpath.psu.edu/psc/CSPRD/EMPLOYEE/SA/c/PE_AD077.PE_AD077_TRN_CRD_T.GBL?Page=PE_AD077_MAIN_SRCH&Action=U

9

Not sure if you’re talking about the same thing, but many places like Florida have “dual enrollment” which allows you to graduate with an AA. The purpose is to then allow you to attend one of the fine UF options to finish a BA in two years. Seems like a logical approach to the current student loan debt and college cost concerns seen nationally. If you’re an excellent student in Florida the last two years can be close to zero as well.

10

We researched and considered Middle College for one of our kids. I was quite impressed with the program. A nice alternative to the big institutional high school in many ways, and good preparation for either 2-yr or 4-yr college. Usually the highschoolers takes a couple classes just with the other M.C. highschoolers, and then additional classes with the Comm Coll students. The group of high schoolers tends to be somewhat small and they bond. It is usually for h.s. juniors and seniors, and can be competitive to be accepted to the program. My friend’s daughter thrived at a Middle College then went to on to Harvey Mudd.

11

The public schools in my area add more and more options each year to earn college credit while in high school. Kids can graduate with an Associates degree or a variety of college credits in a number of ways - online classes, classes at the local community college, of course the traditional A.P., or a program where they are part of a select group that focuses on certain core areas (medical/engineering etc.) where they have coursework and real world work earning both college credit and internship experience. It’s amazing all the opportunities - there is something for everyone.

12

Our eldest did middle college in CA and it was a wonderful fit. It was a competitive program. They had to apply, get recommendations, interview. They had a classroom on the community college campus where they took high school honors level English and History together and then could take up to 12 units (about 4 classes) a semester free of charge at the college. Some chose to get AA’s but others, including mine, did not. If she’d gone to a public university she’d have graduated in 2 years but she was not ready to declare a major at 17 and got the financing to attend a top 25 LAC (her preference.) Middle College gave her the academic challenge and freedom she was craving without all the frustrating repetition and hand-holding she was experiencing in the AP system. It also gave her time. She could get enough sleep. It allowed her to do quality internships, she spent 20 hours a week pursuing her interest activities and we actually got to spend time with her. The homework she had was more meaningful. Admittedly, she was a stronger student than many of her college classmates but they didn’t get in her way or degrade the experience.

About 3/4 of graduates went to in-state public schools… their credits were worth the most and good prices. The other 1/4 went to selective and highly selective private schools.

It’s not for everyone. We didn’t send our middle kid because he was already in an AP alternative school (project based) with dual enrollment class options at the local university (though not nearly as many.) He wasn’t the best candidate at 15 either… highly social, some organizational issues, an excellent student but benefitted from closer supervision.

13

DE is very popular in FL (at least in the Tampa area). As others have mentioned, it can be used to knock out general ed reqs in college (be careful as not every college accepts the credit - far more take AP vs DE for knocking out reqs). However, the major Unis in FL DO take DE. We know many kids that have entered college as a sophomore (some as juniors). Technically they could graduate early. Most that we know stay the four yrs and come out will dual degrees or a masters.

Anecdotally, S took a few DE classes at a local CC and found them to be the easiest classes he took in HS. Nowhere near the rigour of AP (just one kid’s experience). He was actually miffed at M&D for discouraging DE and focusing on AP as he would have received more weighted GPA credit. He did just fine but the val / sal loaded up on DE.

14

“This is not a school for kids whose ambition is to go to Harvard, or Penn, or anywhere like that.”

I can’t speak to the Philadelphia program, but in California, Middle College programs are prestigious and you will absolutely and often find MC graduates transferring to UC Berkeley, UCLA, etc., and occasionally to Stanford, Northwestern, Cornell, and the like. They matriculate as sophomores or juniors, depending on how many of their units successfully transfer to the particular institution.

To gain admission to Middle College, students typically need excellent test scores and solid recommendations. It is entirely different from dual enrollment, which is great in its own way. MC is a formal, self-contained program. Students move through as a cohort, taking required high-school-level courses together (at the college) and taking other, personally-selected, college-level courses independently (at the college.) Students are technically enrolled in their local public high school but take NO coursework at the high school once they’re enrolled in MC. They can, however, choose to participate in the high school’s sports teams and clubs, attend its proms, etc.

Middle College in California has existed for generations, and was originally designed to “rescue” bright, capable students who weren’t succeeding in the traditional high school structure. Typically, such students had high test scores but low grades. One of my close friends, who fit that description, went through the MC program decades back and ultimately completed her education at an Ivy. Today, she’s a professor. These days, students with excellent grades also apply to these prestigious Middle College programs. For example, another friend’s brilliant but quirky child, who originally applied to the program with a 4.0 GPA, just graduated, and is headed to a prestigious European university.

At the same community colleges, there are plenty of students utilizing the dual enrollment option. But, again, that’s something else entirely.

I can’t speak to what happens in other states, but in California, Middle College programs are well-regarded and an excellent option for bright and capable juniors and seniors who aren’t thrilled with their high school learning environment. The program is a self-contained academic cohort within each community college, also giving students the option to continue sports, clubs, and social events at their local high school. MC is certainly not for everyone, but can be a great choice for the right child.

15

Part of what interested me about the Philadelphia school described was that it manifestly was NOT the type of program CardinalBobcat describes. The Philadelphia public school system actually does a pretty good job of providing opportunities to kids who know they want to go to college and have the intellectual tools to produce average test scores or better. It offers a number of different academic magnet schools that are very high quality and deliver lots of students to high-prestige private and public universities and LACs, and even more students to the lower-tier in-state publics. They do dual enrollment, too, for good students – although more often with local universities, not CCP. (The largest, oldest such school actually holds a college charter and awards AA degrees at high school graduation to over half of its students.) The school described in the article, however, is not really competing with those schools (although maybe it is at the margin). This is a strategy to get kids into and through college who might never have gone otherwise.

16

I don’t see anywhere in the article that states that it is a feeder for the community college, did you mean local universities?

The school in the article is very, very similiar to the school that my son attends. His school is considered an Early college though. His school is a feeder to UNC chapel hill. Some students venture out of the UNC system, but not many. The school is on the community college campus, they have one floor in one of the college buildings where the high school classes are taught. Beginning in 9th grade, students start taking some college courses, and by the end of senior year they will graduate with both a high school diploma and an associate’s degree.(either AA or AS). The school is selective, but is open to the whole city. The students must take the community colllege placement exam and be interviewed before they are picked for the program. It is a hard program and students are warned about the workload, those that get in have a comraderie that is unlike a traditional HS because they are “all in it together”. They have field trips, clubs and a prom. Sports can be taken at the local traditional high school of the student.
The prom is shared with the middle college, which are students who went to a traditional school 9th and 10th and go to middle college on the campus for 11th and 12th while taking some college courses. they have different HS teachers whose classrooms are in a different building than early college. They do not graduate with an associates.
For both schools the costs are mostly covered by the state.

17

@JHS , my neighbor’s child did MS, and my niece did it in another city on the other side of the state. In my state, different MS programs are offered at the local CCs and at a local public 4-yr university campuses. Both girls loved the experience and, coincidentally, both went on to attend the same in-state 4-yr university (in another city) to complete their BAs. My neighbor’s kid graduated from college a couple years ago and after a year working is not attending grad school.

I know other children who have attended MS. Some go to in-state public universities, some to OOS public universities, some to private schools. From what I’ve seen, the students at the local MS high schools aren’t significantly different from high school students who attend other local public high schools, except the lowest-achieving academic students don’t find their way to MS. There are regular-performing students and high-achieving students. After MS graduation, they attend a range of universities, just like other kids graduating from high school. A couple don’t attend college after MS and enter the workforce.

The students who attend MS that I’ve spoken with appreciated the smaller enrollments (even as they attended MS on campuses of Community Colleges and local universities with larger overall enrollments.) They developed closer relationships with their classmates and teachers.

I tried to get my son into the local program, but my city utilizes a lottery type enrollment and he didn’t get in. My next child will be ready for HS in 2020, and I hope she wins the lottery to get in.

18

@MamaBear2001 The school isn’t a “feeder” to the local community college. The students at the school take all of their 11-12th grade classes (and some 9-10th grade classes) at the local community college, and generally expect to receive a community college AA degree at high school graduation. What’s different about the school from the school you described is that it is NOT a feeder to anything equivalent to UNC - Chapel Hill, i.e., Penn State or Pitt main campuses, or Penn.

I’ll admit: I say that, but neither I nor anyone else knows what colleges it will feed into, because it just opened two years ago and won’t graduate its first class until 2021. But the article makes passing allusion to the fact that the school is substantially less selective in its admissions than the other public magnet schools here that regularly send kids to selective colleges.

19

The newness may be at least partly why the parents/students aiming for top-end high schools initially are less interested and do not apply there. A similar phenomenon can occur in state university systems, where the newest campuses are often among the least selective because many students prefer the established known campuses (e.g. in California, UCM, CSUMB, CSUCI).

The SES level of the students at the high school may be a significant factor in the college destinations of its graduates, particularly in Pennsylvania where in-state public university affordability is not so good.

20

DE in my kids HS was not the choice of the top students, those students did IB plus AP. DE looked very vocational. The non IB top kids just did all AP. There is an early college charter school in the area, and actual early uni with 12th grade being take at the 4 yr flagship last year as a pilot program. Even in the state school the IB diploma WAS 30 credits in itself (min as most kids also have APs) so that amounted to the same status. When we went to presentations it was interesting how the parents in the G&T track knew not to be distracted by the DE hard sell. I doubt it was anywhere near as clear to other parents.