Middle-Class Gets a Raw Deal

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Ok, I stand corrected. UMASS Amherst in state will cost $17,399 including room and board. This does not include any books though. So call it 20K at least. The state college system in state will cost 13,151 with room and board before books, call it 15K. Any way you call it, thats still 70 to 90K that we will have to get up, with no aid, actually even more because the requirements are so demanding that no one can get a BS in less than 5 years. Thats a lot of money for the middle class. The rich get the tax breaks, the poor get some help, we get screwed

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<p>This is utterly ridiculous. If it is true, get a DAMN JOB. Working full time during the summer and working between 20-32 hours during the year, with 20 being the min and 32 overdoing it, you would have enough money to pay for that, or at most you should graduate with 10 grand or less in debt. Not to mention an internship during you sophomore and junior summers should also lead to at least 6.5-7k + gross. If i work 24 hrs/week from now from the time i start this summer till the end of the school year and include a possible internship at the average pay in the industry i plan on interning, i will bring in 17k ( and this doesnt include other ventures i have taken on so i could fund my school, but since everything has been reasonable and doable with my regular pay, this can instead fund my retirement). If i can do this on my own, any motivated young person can as well. And haven't you heard of employers that reimburse you tuition, such as UPS, BOFA etc. Find out who does this and take advantage of it as much as you can. </p>

<p>Secondly, you can be more conservative with your housing needs. Sharing a room in an apartment is much more cost effective than sharing a room in a dorm.</p>

<p>actually, coming from a white middle class family in the northeast, we are at a disadvantage certainly from a financial aid point of view. we're almost penalized because our parents work the 9-5 all week. </p>

<p>i'm paying $18,000 a year to go to a state school (uconn). i qualified for almost every merit scholarship, merit aid grants, and got NOTHING (save $640 in work study. WOOHOO!!!). i feel this is chiefly because my familys EFC was just under $15,000. and for some reason, that most universities feel that just because i'm white, my parents are married, and both work that i can some how afford to go to college. however, this is not true. the fafsa does not consider most extenuating circumstances and leaves middle class applicants at a disadvantage.</p>

<p>my classmate, carlos, who is hispanic and has similar stats to mine although my ec's were much stronger, comes from a low income family. he got rejected from every school he applied to (the ivys and even northeastern villanova and miami) but not only got into princeton, but got $46,000 of grant aid. aka, he only has to pay $4,000 over 4 years to go to an PRINCETON!!!! and i have to pay $54,000 to go my state school. although its comparing private to state school, there is clearly a discrepancy between low income and middle class fafsa applicants.</p>

<p>he got rejected from every school he applied to (the ivys and even northeastern villanova and miami) but not only got into princeton, but got $46,000 of grant aid. aka, he only has to pay $4,000 over 4 years to go to an PRINCETON!!!!</p>

<p>so when did Princeton stop being an Ivy?</p>

<p>my classmate, carlos, who is hispanic and has similar stats to mine although my ec's were much stronger.........i'm paying $18,000 a year to go to a state school (uconn). i qualified for almost every merit scholarship, merit aid grants, and got NOTHING</p>

<p>If your stats are that strong, I realize that often state schools do not offer much merit, but there are private schools who do have merit awards-
were there no other schools that offered you merit?</p>

<p>rriello5 </p>

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i'm paying $18,000 a year to go to a state school (uconn). i qualified for almost every merit scholarship, merit aid grants, and got NOTHING

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<p>according you your own post you were admitted to :</p>

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UHart/NYU
Penn State
UPittsburgh
UFlorida</p>

<p>GPA 3.9/4.0 4.67/5.0
SAT 1270/1600 1890/2400
RANK 9/244</p>

<p>I am proof that there is hope for those unstellar SAT scorers!!!</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3229867#post3229867%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=3229867#post3229867&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>none of the schools on your list :</p>

<p>are truly generous when it comes to offering need based financial aid</p>

<p>meet 100% of demonstrated need (they gap which means there will be a part of the cost of attendance that you will have to come up with the best way you can)</p>

<p>are generous when it comes to giving large amounts of "free money" in terms of grant and scholarship aid</p>

<p>While you beleive that you met the minimum requirements for merit money, it is safe to say that academically stronger students knocked you out of the box</p>

<p>Overall, it looks as your family choose for you to attend the most financially feasible option which is your state school at UConn.</p>

<p>It gets even better: I know a "family" who appear to be lower middle class on paper (father works as professional but is self employed; mother is not working) and sent their kids to an exclusive prep school....how? grandparents foot the bill and I strongly suspect underwrite their daily expenses as well by paying off credit card debt, giving them cars etc....and guess what? their D got into an IVY, and guess what again? The Ivy "thought" they were poor and gave her a BUNCH of financial aid ..almost a full ride.....only they dont know about the grandparents being loaded. IS that fair? Heck no. But its another example of the injustice in financial aid.</p>

<p>My wife and I have money in retirement accounts. Even though they are NOT supposed to consider that in the financial aid equations, they all asked for it, and FAFSA requires you to disclose it. We own a timeshare which is fun to use, but worth about 20% of what we paid for it. What did FAFSA do? Consider it at book value of what we paid. So what happened to us? We got hosed on EFC and HOSED by the schools my D got into. Is it fair? No. It occurs.</p>

<p>Also, you should know that financial aid awards are as quirky and political as the admissions process. There are agendas at work there beyond your control.</p>

<p>The thing that irks me is that while college costs have skyrocketed the past 10 years (one prestigious elite in the South went from 11,000 in tuition 10 years ago, to 35,000 a year this year!) the universities arent putting that money in the pockets of professors...its going into their endowments etc.</p>

<p>Princeton, other Ivy's and even Davidson are moving towards a tuition free admission process....funded TOTALLY by their investment income from endowments that are in the stratosphere....and donations from wealthy benefactors...in the hundreds of millions. So why the increase in tuition? You ask me, I dont know. College is becoming an elitist process. Though, there are always less competitive schools that will take you and often give you BIG money. I know for a fact that my D could have EASILY gotten into Randolph Macon Women's college and they openly touted a scholarship to her which was nearly a full ride....what did she do with that? In the garbage...not because its a bad school....it isnt...its a great school....but because she didnt want a small all women's school. Randolph Macon then changed its admissions this year to include males....still not enough to entice my D. So we are going to pay through the nose for a private in the northeast...while someone we know, fleeced the system by hiding grandparents wealth. Go figure.</p>

<p>friedokra, I wouldn't have any envy for an adult family that is still so attached to their parents financially. They may be getting some advantages for their kids, but do you think their kids are learning about self-reliance?</p>

<p>I think the problems for middle-class families who find themselves looking at a larger than expected bill are many and varied. My family does not live high on the hog. We have one car, a 10 year old television set, we have 3 computers, but one was a gift, one was purchased use from my former employer, and one belongs to my daughter, she paid for it herself. We have taken some cool vacations, but we saved up for them and paid for them, we didn't put them on credit cards. </p>

<p>But we don't have a lot of resources for raising money - we don't have additional property that we can borrow against or sell, we don't have a money market fund that we can use or receive dividends from investments. In my case, I work in the public sector, so I can't get overtime pay for putting in more hours (and I will again weep for my old private sector job -outsourced- and all the money I used to make there). </p>

<p>In addition, we also don't have a lot of wiggle room for taking big risks - if either my husband or I lost our jobs, if we had a car accident, if someone in our family had a medical crisis, if there was some sort of natural disaster and our house was flooded or burned down....we would be totally sunk. I also have other family members to think about - if something happened to my parents, I have a disabled younger sister with rheumatoid arthritis who can't live on her own, so we would need to make arrangements for her....it's a house of cards, and if something happened at any point in that house, everything would come tumbling down.</p>

<p>I feel lucky in that at least I have a healthy 401K, if we were in a crisis, I would take the tax hit and try to minimize the damage, but that would be scary as far as how it bodes for the future.</p>

<p>Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but grandparent's income does not have to be factored into financial aid. FAFSA verification asks for things like any <em>cash</em> given to you, or bills paid in your name, but it's not my understanding that the people a previous poster mentioned are "hiding" some wealth. </p>

<p>I have a partner I live with whom I'm not married to. Because of that, his income is not included in the FAFSA. I'm not "hiding" his income -- it's just not part of the financial aid equation.</p>

<p>If I remember right though PROFILE does ask about other money that you may be expected to recieve.</p>

<p>Students who are depending on help from family or friends to attend college aren't increasing their own wealth, but they do have resources that others applying for aid may not.</p>

<p>Which is one reason why students who * do *have a lot of outside resources, may want to consider schools that only use the FAFSA rather than schools that try and identify these outside sources of aid.</p>

<p>Also remember schools have the right to issue their own financial aid applications in addition to FAFSA and CSS Profile. Daughter had two different schools send the family an income statement........monthly income vs monthly expenditures. One had a questionaire wanting to know ALL outside funds from family/friends, etc.</p>

<p>And some schools want me to fill that stuff out * every year*
tedious
but then again- if I reason that it is to see if I qualify for any of the schools money- as opposed to income taxes, where I am figuring out how much of my own money I get to keep!</p>

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My wife and I have money in retirement accounts. Even though they are NOT supposed to consider that in the financial aid equations, they all asked for it, and FAFSA requires you to disclose it.

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<p>This is incorrect. FAFSA specifically tells you NOT to report money in retirement accounts. The only retirement money you report on FAFSA is current year contributions (presumably so people don't contribute a chunk to reduce current year income). Balances in the accounts (providing they are actual retirement accounts 401ks, IRAs etc) are not reported.</p>

<p>friedokra: If the kids attended an expensive prep school, one of the Profile questions is how much tuition was paid for private HS...also, what scholarships were offered. So, either the HS gave the kids scholarships or the money had to come from somewhere else which would have needed to be reported. yes, if Grandpa paid a credit card, that might be able to be snuck through, but if Grandpa paid tuition and the family makes low income, the Uni would aks how the tuition was paid!</p>

<p>The other thing to keep in mind- rumors are not nesc. true. Many people will tell you about their full scholarship for Harvard- no such thing, about their full ride football scholarship to Princeton, no such thing....what you hear does not always represent the truth.</p>

<p>Swim mom is right, NO retirement assets reported to FAFSA, current year contributions only</p>

<p>First, not everyone can work over 20 hours a week during school year. Certain majors make it almost impossible to do. Though I would, in theory, have 16 credit hours; in reality, once adding in discussions/labs, I was in class 21/22 hours per week. This semester, I am registered for 18 hours, but am in class for nearly 25 hours. Of the people who work, average, per week, is about 10 hours per week.
I have worked several summers: three full time and one part time, and I made each summer between $2000 and $2700. That does not even pay for a semester's tuition. This summer, though, I'll make good money. I'll make a little less than all those other summers, combined.
I was always told since elementary school, I could only go to public, in-state schools or equivalent. You don't need to go to fancy private to do well. I actually go to the 2nd most expensive public Illinois school. The fact is, long term, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Your school will get you your first job, but your second job and onwards depends more on networking and experience.</p>

<p>there you go.</p>

<p>same here...income after taxes is about 100k (NO PROPERTY WHATSOEVER and NOTHING...all we have is income) and our EFC is 72k. ***. we cannot afford that. and plus we're not permanent residents. GRRRR</p>

<p>South Pasadena, thanks for your insightful and friendly advice.</p>

<p>lol...relax emeraldkity, princeton never stopped being an ivy, i was merely providing a brief summation of the other school he applied to...the ivies in his case included yale, columbia, harvard, penn, and of course princeton.</p>

<p>as me, and the other schools aid...
uhart admitted me to their 7yr bs/dmd program with nyu and tossed me a 15,000 merit scholarship ontop of a 7,500 grant plus work study and loans</p>

<p>penn state spent more on the postage then offering aid of any sort</p>

<p>florida flat out rejected me lol</p>

<p>pitt gave me 6500 on an OOS scholarship plus a 3000 grant and work study</p>

<p>south florida gave me 8,000 OOS scholarship, 800 honors college scholarship, and 4,000 in grants and work study</p>

<p>and to sybbie, actually south florida ended up being the cheapest over uconn, i think, not including loans, the price per year was something around 8,000 or 9,000. but i like to go to vacation to florida, not go to school there as a full time student. my parents actually wanted me to go to penn state lol.</p>

<p>and to everyone, i cited carlos to just provide an example what being hispanic and having a low income can do for you and your fafsa with less than average stats for an ivy. he admitted today at lunch that he shouldn't have been admitted lol, but he said "i played the spanish card real hard, first generation spanish speaking spanish card."</p>

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First, not everyone can work over 20 hours a week during school year. Certain majors make it almost impossible to do. Though I would, in theory, have 16 credit hours; in reality, once adding in discussions/labs, I was in class 21/22 hours per week. This semester, I am registered for 18 hours, but am in class for nearly 25 hours. Of the people who work, average, per week, is about 10 hours per week.
I have worked several summers: three full time and one part time, and I made each summer between $2000 and $2700. That does not even pay for a semester's tuition. This summer, though, I'll make good money. I'll make a little less than all those other summers, combined.

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<p>I disagree with this statement. I drive 30 miles to work one way and i drive 25 miles to school one way. I am able to hold down 32 hours and 19 semester units. I babysit on the side. I have other online ventures that i must attend to and with all this, i still have plenty of time for whatever i please to do - and in my case that is sleeping. If you must work and your taking a harder major, and the work is because you need to pay for school, you can look at it one or two ways, i can pile up my debt and pay it off later - which is perfectly fine as long as you have run the numbers and find it plausible for you to do so - or you can take a lighter load such as 15 units, the standard among most. </p>

<p>Scheduling the hours should be the most difficult part, and the actual work involved with this is mearly contact between you and your hr. A student can work 16 hours on weekends and spread the other 4 or more hours among the weekdays. This is not a difficult proposition. Obviously eng and the sciences would stick out among the most time consuming majors, and if one is able to - and they should with proper time management- complete their major in good shape and while working then bravo, welcome to the real world.</p>

<p>'income after taxes is about 100k (NO PROPERTY WHATSOEVER and NOTHING...all we have is income) and our EFC is 72k.'</p>

<p>Not possible to have a 72K EFC on 100K income with few assets, even if after-tax dollars. You've got something wrong.</p>

<p>Well, there are certainly a lot of strong emotions on this thread! Look, I get that financial aid is a difficult topic, but many of the comments on this thread are quite unbecoming, in my opinion. As others have said, repeating whatever version of the welfare queen scenario ad nauseum--even if you <em>know</em> it to be true--will not accomplish anything. People always cheat the system, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the system is totally broken. </p>

<p>You know what? Elite college educations have always been expensive, and the financial aid for economically middle and low class people at these schools is better now than it ever was. Way back in the day, my mother, the daughter of a bricklayer, received essentially no financial help to attend Princeton, and graduated with such a large amount of debt that she curled up on the floor and wept when she saw a bill. And yet--that bill went away, eventually, and guess what--the Princeton education never did. Was it easy to pay down such a large bill? Obviously not. As you can well imagine, my parents worked very hard and lived very leanly for at least 10 years after my they graduated, and would have done so longer had she not eventually entered a lucrative career (my father worked too, but architecture takes a comparatively long time to build up to the comfortable income level). </p>

<p>This is not to suggest that everyone should take on whatever huge amount of debt that they are offered--that is a very personal decision, and not one that I would attempt to make for another person. But I think that an education--whether it be "elite" or not--is available to most every middle class student and family who gets in the game early and plans ahead. </p>

<p>Indulge me while I make some assumptions: as far as I know, there is no instate public school education that costs greater than $30,000/yr. I would think that even at the low end of the economic middle class, a minimum of$5000/yr contribution could usually be scraped up, for a $20,000 total. A student who worked 30 hrs/wk for 10 wks of the summer at $6/hr (I hope that's not too high of an estimate--that would be really low for where I live, but I know that in less wealthy areas it could be lower) would earn $1800/summer. Assuming they could work 3 HS summers and 3 college ones, that would be $10,800. If that student also worked 15 hrs/wk for 35 wks during the school year for the same wage, 7 years of working would yield $22,050. With parental contributions and work money, we have $52,850--a significant portion of the most expensive possible in-state tuition bill, although not enough to reasonably cover with loans. </p>

<p>However. If this family, which is so carefully planning ahead, is also able to save a bit of money (say the equivalent of $5000/yr), if the student works more hours and/or gets a better wage (not a guarantee, I understand) (an additional 10 hrs/wk during the summer and 5 hrs/wk during the school year over the stated periods = $10,950), $83,800 can be covered by the family. The rest--for the most expensive in-state public school--could be not unreasonably covered by loans and/or a year or two in community college. Hard? Absolutely, and I don't claim that that is not or should not be seen as such. But I know plenty of kids in my probably slightly wealthier than median income public HS who work this many hours and more than a few who work a whole lot more (essentially full time jobs during the school year, which I do not recommend or advocate), and these figures are for full price for the priciest in-state education. Community college, a cheaper public, or a school that offers substantial merit aid are all ways to cut the bottom line and the loans to reasonable levels. </p>

<p>For sure, choices are more limited when operating on a strict budget, especially if the student is not an academic/athletic standout that can pretty readily acquire merit aid. But a college education? That can be had, even for the poor, squeezed middle class--I see the people in my school do it all the time. Their choices largely are't real fancy, but in my obsevations the students are happy and the objective--an education--is reached. </p>

<p>I know that my methodology is not perfect--I didn't allow for taxes and assumed that all earnings would go to the college fund and not the cell phone bill, and I know that those things make a difference in the real world. But I also assumed a pretty low wage, a pretty low parental contribution and a pricey public education. I still think with loans and/or community college, even an pretty expensive education could be financed this way. </p>

<p>(P.S: I understand that the assumptions I made may not be true for every single case. It was merely an excercise to illustrate how a middle class family of pretty modest means could possibly finesse a relatively expensive college education. Feel free to point out any serious flaws in my assumptions, but understand that I make no attempt to claim that this can work for every.single.family.)</p>