<p>I laughed after reading post #458! Actually, Mr. and Mrs. teacher from our public school system would not get much in the way of grants (unless they had a classroom of kids of their own at home) b/c they would be wealthy. They would definitely be earning a family income over 6 figures if they began their careers in their early twenties and they were in their mid to late 40's when kiddo #1 was ready for college. At least their contribution to their retirement account would not be necessary b/c of their pension, so their efc would be a little bit lower than those who need to make contributions to their retirement funds.</p>
<p>BTW, it looks like some posters don't sleep much! I hope that you are not up all night, and losing sleep over this debate, which will lead nowhere anyway, IMO.</p>
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BTW, it looks like some posters don't sleep much! I hope that you are not up all night, and losing sleep over this debate, which will lead nowhere anyway, IMO.
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<p>I don't know about others, but my schedule is a little off. (Between helping take care of the kids; the vaguaries of New York City traffic and parking; and serving clients who are working, I often work odd hours.)</p>
<p>And of course you are right that this debate will likely lead nowhere. I was reviewing the thread and the same arguments seem to keep coming up again and again. But for me, I enjoy discussing and debating issues without the pressure of deadlines and responsibilities to clients.</p>
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And of course you are right that this debate will likely lead nowhere. I was reviewing the thread and the same arguments seem to keep coming up again and again.
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<p>That is the true shame of it all.</p>
<p>BTW, Mr. and Mrs. teacher are really not "wealthy". In our region of the US they have higher salaries than in other areas of the country. The cost of living is also higher, and most teachers that I know take on a second or even third job to make ends meet. This means after school tutoring, summer employment elsewhere, I know one who is a bartender and another who works as a security guard. Many coach teams for extra money to be added to their paychecks. I do think that contribututions to pension should be factored in for all employees where employers make that contribution. It counts against our family if we put away anything for retirement, since we need to make those contributions on our own. Yes, that is a complaint of mine.</p>
<p>Again, my offer of to all 'middle calss' families who are moaning, goaning and ranting with 175k/yr income and high home equity stands. Send me your income and expenditure-I will help you cut the fat. ;)</p>
<p>Anyone with a large income who complains about college tuition and financial aid can't possibly be concerned about people less well off than him or herself. Such a person must be "unappreciative." And it's fair to dismiss all of their complaints as "whining," "groaning," and the like.</p>
<p>"That is, I think that color t.v. my parents couldn't afford in 1962 would have cost about $350, and I can still buy a nice color t.v. for about $350 ... but $350 is a lot less money in 2007 dollars."</p>
<p>In 1977 I bought my first 19" color TV from my first paycheck for $400. Today, you can buy the same TV for around $100.</p>
<p>*In common parlance, most people would not consider a 25 year old as middle aged. If they heard somebody referred to as a "middle-aged Mexican man," most people would probably NOT envision a 25 year old.</p>
<p>If you think that a 25 year old Mexican is "middle aged," feel free. But you are using a non-standard definition.*</p>
<p>I don't see anyplace where the life expectancy of Mexican men is 50, so no I wouldn't consider a 25 year old middle aged.
In areas where the life is so hard, that inhabitants don't generally live past 50, then 25 would be middle aged. They would also usually look it and feel it as well.</p>
<p>I laughed after reading post #458! Actually, Mr. and Mrs. teacher from our public school system would not get much in the way of grants</p>
<p>Thats true
If a teacher of the age to have a kid in college, has worked 20 years in the system, ( which is long enough to retire), they are making about $70,000, not counting that either of them may be spending their summers doing seminars or other work which may also kick their income up
( one teacher of Ds not only did seminars during the summer- but during a year in which she was being treated for cancer* and still working* she wrote an award winning book- although as I kept reminding my D- she didn't have any kids either!)</p>
<p>However- making six figures doesn't disqualify you from merit aid- and some schools also will scrutinize your financial info so that they can give you some need based. ( of course schools also tweak your info the other way as well)</p>
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mid·dle-aged /ˈmɪdlˈeɪdʒd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mid-l-eyjd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective 1. being of the age intermediate between youth and old age, roughly between 45 and 65.<br>
2. characteristic of or suitable for persons of this age.<br>
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<p>Maybe somebody should alert dictionary.com that their definition of "middle aged" is wrong. [that was sarcasm]</p>
<p>With respect to your definition of "middle-aged," please be advised that there is another definition that I like better. Therefore yours is wrong. The One True Definition of "middle-aged" is being of an age one half of the life expectancy for the nation you live in. Kindly change the definition at your earliest convenience so that others may quickly benefit from the Truth I have bestowed. Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.</p>
<p>All this increasingly humorous discussion of middle-age grew out of an earlier discussion of middle-income. In my own way, I tried to contribute to that discussion by linking to data on median income in different households and states.</p>
<p>A median is a mid-point but it is not "the middle," as in halfway between two points (as in one of the definitions of middle age). (And, by the way, what life expectancy are you using? Life expectancy at age 1, age 20, age 50, etc.? Each one is different.) Instead, a median is more like a weighted middle, weighted in terms of the distribution of the population. When you go halfway between two points, that is an average and averages are not used by economists and policy analysts when looking at incomes. Why? Because averages are affected by outliers -- particular data points that are far from what is typical. You can have Bill Gates (the outlier) and 9 people with family incomes of 70K a year in a room and the median would be 70K, while the average would be much, much higher because of the very large income of Gates.</p>
<p>A lot of discussion here has involved a group of people with high incomes who live near each other who are near the median compared to each other, but when compared the US population, they are clearly above the median. Colleges who give need based aid (mostly) care about the national context. They make small adjustments for cost of living, but are not willing to say that people who make big incomes in the national context living among other people with big incomes are somehow in the middle. For college financial aid offices, the medians that matter are the national medians and perhaps the median for students going to their institution.</p>
<p>Thank you for that explanation, Momfromme. </p>
<p>I'd point out, however, that the "group of people with high income who live near each other" are NOT near the median for their areas - as I pointed out with my post about Bergen Co., NJ -- where the median family income is less than $80K... but lskinner argues or a definition of "middle" income that goes up to $175K. While it is true that the median income for Bergen is much higher than the median for, say, Louisville KY (median=$49K) -- the fact is that someone with a $150K income is well above median in either city. </p>
<p>As someone living quite comfortably in a high-cost area on a true median level income, I'd be happy to join Garland's and Simba's offer to show the way. I think that the upper income families fall into a lifelong habit of spending in accordance with their means -- purchasing larger homes in "better" neighborhoods, opting for more expensive cars, taking more costly vacations, etc. -- and pretty soon they've spent 3 or 4 times as much money to get the exact same thing that those of us with moderate incomes have for so much less ---- because we opted for the smaller home in the less desirable neighborhood, we bought economy cars, we went camping instead of staying at well appointed hotels, our kids went to public schools rather than private, etc. So they don't see how anyone can live on less, when in their own communities the vast majority live on far less. </p>
<p>The median home price in Bergen County is around $250K and the median mortgage payment is around $1700 -- which means that the median earning family can own a home and a $150K earner with a $1700 mortgage would have a lot of discretionary income. [Source: <a href="http://www.nationalrelocation.com/real-estate/New%20Jersey/Bergen%20County.aspx%5B/url%5D">http://www.nationalrelocation.com/real-estate/New%20Jersey/Bergen%20County.aspx</a> ] The problem is that in post #443, lskinner doubled the median home price, to $500K -- which is around the 75th percentile mark for home prices in his county. But the stats show that about half of the homeowners in Bergen county actually live in homes that cost $300K or less -- so lskinner is using an upper quartile standard to define "middle class". </p>
<p>The point is, "need" based financial aid isn't meant to subsidize upper income people living upper income lifestyles -- it is intended primarily to assist the people on the lower half of the spectrum.</p>
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but lskinner argues or a definition of "middle" income that goes up to $175K.
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<p>I carefully set forth the income range that I considered middle class for my area with the qualification that it depended on family circumstances. </p>
<p>And your most recent post studiously ignored my qualifications for your own purposes.</p>
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The median home price in Bergen County is around $250K
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<p>Ummm, that's false. (Note that the cite you provide is undated.)</p>
<p>Guess how many single family residential houses are listed for under 250k? 12. That's right. twelve houses. Twelve houses in the entire county. (which has a population of approximately 1 million people.)</p>
<p>Now guess how many single family residential houses are listed for over 250k? 3979. Approximately 4000 houses.</p>
<p>Go and check if you don't believe me.</p>
<p>Next, go to the National Association of Realtors website that was linked earlier in this thread and look up the most recent prices (4th quarter 2006) for the White Plains - Wayne statistical area. That's the area that includes Bergen County.</p>
<p>And calmom, would you please answer the questions I asked earler:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Please show me which of my posts show that I'm "unappreciative"?</p></li>
<li><p>Do you consider a 25 year old Mexican to be "middle aged"?</p></li>
<li><p>When you say that "middle means middle," which group are you referring to the "middle" of?</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Iskinner: Now you have three people who can help you how you can cut the fat down and might even pay for your kids education from your current gross income. You may not have to borrow against your home.</p>
<p>"1. Please show me which of my posts show that I'm "unappreciative"?"</p>
<p>Allow me to take this. You did not say this in any specific post. However, when you read all of your posts, one comes up with an impression that you make 175 k/yr, but still want to be considered same as someone who makes $75k/yr. Which can be interpreted as being unappreciative of how good you have it made.</p>
<p>"3. When you say that "middle means middle," which group are you referring to the "middle" of?"</p>
<p>I think momfromme answered that for you by expanding the intent of calmom's definition. You certainly don't want calmom to cut and paste her answer. Do you?</p>