Mom, humanities majors are NOT artsy bums!

Parents Forum
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<p>I was an English major, and never lacked for engaging, often exciting, sometimes challenging, soul-feeding work that also paid all of the bills, has sent me around the world four times, and has me still growing. No, I'm not wealthy by the economic standards of this board. But I am extremely wealthy in friends and families and acquaintances and commitments that exist for me around the world. And I continue to grow.</p>

<p>(At Williams, the music department prides itself on the fact that a higher percentage of their music majors go on to medical school than the biology majors. That's nice, but what I think is even nicer is that the docs will have something to feed their souls after a long day of human plumbing.)</p>

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<p>Probably true, and my physician H is a burned out bundle of nerves about to slash his income to bits as soon as he gets the teaching certificate he's studying for.</p>

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<p>"""but what I think is even nicer is that the docs will have something to feed their souls after a long day of human plumbing.)"""</p>

<p>I love this^^ and it is very true. Many med students are NOT pre-med majors undergrad - and many med schools actually prefer the lib arts grad for exactly the above reasons - because they are soooo much more well rounded candidates - so it is very well said - ty.</p>

<p>And - how many of the pre-med kids actually go that route to med school - many many many change direction in college - thank goodness.</p>

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<p>Susan, I'm not saying that BA grads can't get good jobs, or that they do or don't need to go to grad school. I'm saying that all students need to be thinking about their future, and what careers they can make out of the talents and interests that they have. I don't think freshman should know what they want to do, but it is time for the student to beging to seriously consider what is best for them.
My other point is that many people don't agree with this viewpoint at all, and some may have valid financial reasons for not agreeing - the family may need the student's income, or at least need the student to be independent of the family resources. For many of the people I know, and many of the people in my family, going to grad school or developing the type of career many of our fellow posters enjoy, is a very scary and foreign idea. For one thing, you can't pursue that career in rural/suburban Alabama where they live, and they cannot conceive of living anywhere else! </p>

<p>My point is, the OP may have to compromise with the parents, she may have to educate the parents (and needs to adopt a more conciliatory tone to be successful), she has to see their side of the issue, to understand how to present her side. And a couple of accounting/business/finance courses never hurt anyone. Getting a teaching certificate may be a good idea in a year or two. She needs to present a plan for HER life, not just the notion that many people are successful with these degrees - that is probably not concrete enough to address Mom's concerns.</p>

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<p>Absolutely Irishbird. Excellent advice.</p>

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<p>Cangel, I agree that college is not just about "finding yourself and growing up" (though that also happens), and that a student needs to look FORWARD. I also think a student needs to explore next steps and be thinking toward careers while pursuing their liberal arts degree. I don't think the undergraduate major needs to be career oriented. But the student HERSELF should be career oriented. I was simply saying that a humanities major CAN go onto many successful careers, some involving a professional degree, some not. There are many kinds of jobs that employ those with humanities majors. They want educated people but then train them on the job as to the specifics of that field. As well, humanities majors can go onto professional graduate degrees. They can teach too. Anyway, I agree with the notion of having a plan but also I believe that the liberal arts degree can lead to many successful careers. I definitely think it is imperative to be interested in what you choose to major in and not be told by parents which major to choose. But yes, thinking of the future must be a part of it. I don't think anyone is saying get an education just to be educated. I think a broad liberal arts education and thus an educated person, can go onto many careers. I don't think the undergraduate degree has to be a so called "practical" one for that to happen. And the flip side is that I have a kid going into a "practical" training professional undergraduate major and finding work in HER field with that terminal degree will be amazingly difficult. Then again, she will have a degree and I think an educated person can go into many things and eventually find work. Education is the first step.</p>

<p>I also had to smile to your taxi cab reference. My hubby went to a four year professional graduate school. Throughout the four years (and we were married this entire time as well), he drove a taxi cab!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
At Williams, the music department prides itself on the fact that a higher percentage of their music majors go on to medical school than the biology majors. That's nice, but what I think is even nicer is that the docs will have something to feed their souls after a long day of human plumbing.

[/quote]
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<p>100% of the music majors that applied to my med school class were successful - 1 of 1! It is the best way, if you can keep those science grades up, just not the most practical (hard not to just go ahead and major in biology or chemistry when you have to take about half of the required major courses).</p>

<p>Carolyn, it hurts my heart to hear all these kids saying "I'm going pre-med", knowing they don't have a clue. Garland's husband could tell them some stories. But they will learn, some will make it, some will be successful in other things, and unfortunately some will make it and then find that it is not what they wanted after all. And some will be like Garland's husband - doing what they want, but destroyed by inches in the process, to the point that they can't do it anymore! Medicine is going to change radically I fear over the 10-15 years, and I'm afraid that the economics are going to be such that the public is not going to be happy with the changes - the average person doesn't really want their doc to be the person that graduated from the middle third of the college class (or the med school class either, C=MD makes people nervous;)), and doesn't really want their doc to only be available 9-5 - but this is far afield. The OP has gotten good advice, good luck to her.</p>

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<p>Cangel--I appreciate how you understand H's situation, but this is why I think students shouldn't be pressured to pick a profession for the money it will supposedly guarantee. I agree with Soozie--liberal arts majors are practical; and a student doesn't need to pick a profession while an undergrad, and shouldn't be crowding out subjects they might be interested in for pre-med or teaching certicate courses which are a substantial commitment.</p>

<p>I say this as the parent of a college graduate making a living door to door canvassing (and loving it) and a freshman talking possible English major (whose mother is thrilled by that.)</p>

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<p>however if you are interested in medicine there are many ways to reach people through caring for them and educating them re: their health</p>

<p>Massage therapy will get huge I predict
our area has a naturopathic college, you could be nurse practioner, chiropractor lots of ways to work with the public besides traditional medical school
as our society gets more high tech we have to get more high touch
people aren't satisfied with doctors that see them for 5 minutes anymore- and the doctors aren't too pleased with the hours of paper work that, that short visit generates.
My naturopath sees me often for over an hour at a time, I dont go in very often, but when I do it is nice to have a relationship with my doctor, not just be a file.</p>

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<p>Just to throw my two cents in here.... don't assume that kids who are underemployed after graduation can blame their liberal arts/humanties degrees. We know kids doing the Kinko's/Starbucks/Bednbath route who have all sorts of "practical majors". Well, a lot can change in the four years it takes to complete a degree in things like "business", "computer science", or my very favorite, "sports management". If it were my kid, I'd sure wish they'd majored in Art History or philosophy or Renaissance studies (like the CEO of Procter and Gamble) than have a degree in sports management that seems utterly useless in the job market, and doesn't seem to have been a challenging intellectual experience at all.</p>

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<p>Ah, how highly so many parents think when the kids go off to college. By the time my son was a junior, I did not care if his degree was in basketweaving. I just wanted him out in 4 years. He could get a BA, BS, whatever. I actually over heard discussions among parents debating which was better, and which minor was preferable. When it comes down to the wire, you want them out. I was ready to start burning candles at the home stretch.</p>

<p>Then you want them to have a job. Out of your pocket, out of your house and in a job.</p>

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<p>OKay, EmeraldK, you hit my defensive buttons. My H goes out on a van to the poorest innercity neighborhoods. He sees kids who may not have insurance, who live in projects or homeless shelters, etc. Their visits can easily last an hour. He deals with the whole child, the whole family, the neighborhood they live in, the schools they go to. He and the staff of his van help with shelter, clothing, food. He aids in legal matters like school problems or immigration issues. He sees them in the hospital, takes their calls all night long (I've gotten to know some of the families myself, will chat with moms when they call and he's not home.)</p>

<p>There are no massage therapists or naturopaths where he works.</p>

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<p>My wife (the "other" mini) is a massage therapist who goes to the Harvard of the West (South Puget Sound Community College nursing program - harder to get into than Harvard, and your money or economic class won't help, and there are no tags for football players!) She has a practice doing massage in hospices, in assisted living homes, and among geriatic patients, and expects to expand that greatly with her nursing license. And we wish to travel - luckily, there are old people just about everywhere. (It might even happen to me!)</p>

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<p>My son took a non AP course in sociology in highschool because he had a hole in his schedule. I joked in passing to my wife, who is an RN and very job oriented, that maybe he could become a sociologist. She had a fit. My son and I still get a laugh out of that. My wife still doesn't think it is that funny.</p>

<p>Some friends of ours are in their mid 50's. They both have been professional students taking a lesurely path to a Ph D and a masters in academic subjects. So far finally a teaching job at a cc for the one with the Ph D. after years of slave wages as a adjunct. They still owe over 100 k in student loans and a month ago we had to lend them the rent money as the wife panicked and sent the huge student loan payment when the rent was due. This is the first time and they have paid us back. People do have to take finances into account--at least somewhat. It is amazing that there seems to be no limit to what they will lend people for non- marketable degrees. The wife was still taking loans out about two years ago and now doesn't want to be a teacher with her masters in education. She talks about getting a Ph D, too. I guess they will lend her some more.</p>

<p>My advice is tell your parents you want to go to law school. That should keep them off your back, hopefully. When all is said and done you might have to go anyway. As I like to joke: "There is always law school". I finished when I was 35 , so I should know.</p>

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<p>Blossom - than have a degree in sports management that seems utterly useless in the job market, and doesn't seem to have been a challenging intellectual experience at all.</p>

<p>Please be careful where you tred here - there is a very large market in the sports management areas - it is a very wide open field - AND do not assume that it is not a challenging or intellectual experience at all - unless you are there and not doing very well in this field!?!?!?!?!? Depending on the route you take - it is a challenging and dynamic field - so please educate yourself in the massive amounts of opportunities in this area these days. Just because it may not be your cup of coffee - doesn't mean that it is not some elses - and with whip'd cream to boot.</p>

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<p>Jeepmom-- my point was that there are kids with seem to be the ultimate in practical, career oriented degrees who are just as unemployed and underemployed as the Classics majors. To go that route if you love the field and are challenged by it-- great. To go that route to make mom and dad happy that you're employable only to find yourself filling the paper at Kinko's... frankly, seems like a waste of 160K to me. Study something you love... to end up in hock after four years of taking unstimulating classes (whatever the discipline) and making minimum wage.... in retrospect a lot of these career oriented kids often wish they'd studied something they were passionate about, since the meal ticket piece doesn't always materialize.</p>

<p>And fyi-- since the high end "dream jobs" in sports management, i.e. network TV internships, licensing opportunities for the large sports franchises, private wealth management for players, etc. often go to the history majors and philosophers, it seems especially cruel to limit a kid to a practical major only to see them lose out on professional opportunities.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
OKay, EmeraldK, you hit my defensive buttons. My H goes out on a van to the poorest innercity neighborhoods. He sees kids who may not have insurance, who live in projects or homeless shelters, etc. Their visits can easily last an hour

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<p>Garland it sounds as if your H is a combo social worker/physician /saint! No wonder he is burned out!
I think though that for people who are in an urban area, and see their physicians in a clinic setting where most but not all people have insurance, that it is very common to have brief visits especially when they have mild medical complaints.
Recently I tried to get my daughter an appt with her pediatrician for a sports physical, she isn't taking appts till APRIL!
We reluctantly have switched drs, because waiting for 2 hours for a scheduled appt was not unusual at this clinic which is supposedly the top pediatric one in city ( just happens to be in our neighborhood)
I wasn't trying to attack allopathic medicine, I was just trying to get kids to think out of the box. Do they want to be a doctor because they think it is the ticket to fame and fortune? ( ;) Or are they interested in medicine because they want to help people and are interested in mind:body connection?
Many types of insurance are now covering chiropractic/naturopathic and even massage therapy.
I believe the first naturopathic college was in New Jersey- It was founded in 1900!
<a href="http://www.bastyr.edu/academic/naturopath/history.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bastyr.edu/academic/naturopath/history.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>OKay, I definitely agree with kids not going into medicine f or the wrong reasons, the ones most go into it for.</p>

<p>Not the first time someone used the '"s" word to describe him--not a saint, though. Just an ordinary person doing what seems right. Which unfortunately, takes a toll.</p>

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<p>I think sports management is a field my son may consider. He has an English degree with some tech writing credits and is taking some business course right now so he can understand a spread sheet. But as an athlete all of his life, coaching kids and very active in his sport's administrative functions, that might be an area to consider. BUt hopefully, he'll have a few years of work experience and maturity before going into the field. The problem I see when kids go into such pragmatic programs at age 18, it often does not leave much in the way of alternatives if they change their minds. And any sports club will pick a BA in English with work experience, coaching experience, involvement in the sport after college with some business and sports managment courses over a 21or 22 year old graduating fresh out of college. Just the way it goes. Many of these kids are not happy with the jobs they end of getting in, say physical therapy, radiologist assistant, etc. When you are prelaw, premed, even if you do not go onto the law or med school, your slate of courses have you well prepped for grabbing a few supplemental courses on top some contract work, and then you are primed for a good career. Of course if the student is dead on that he wants to be a teacher and becomes an education major or an accountant, that is one thing, but a lot of those specialty majors seem to ask for an awfully early commitment to a limited field.</p>

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<p>El G - a little variation on what emerald and cangel have said.</p>

<p>I think you need to demonstrate, not to your mom, but to yourself, that you have an idea of where you can go with a lib. arts major. Parents live in mortal fear that you will take off your mortarboard 4 years from now and walk into a job flipping burgers. Most likely, you wouldn't want that for yourself. Parents take their fear one step further and form an equation: art major (or similar) = minimum wage job.</p>

<p>There is so much you can do with LArts majors - if we are concerned with job prospects, it can lead to law, business (a significant minority of my Stanford MBA class were "poets" as we called them), teaching, museum curator... If any of these interest you, show your mom what the path is(grad school, internships...), by doing the research others have suggested.</p>

<p>If none of them interest you, ask yourself if making a "good living" is important to you, and try to imagine how you will get there. </p>

<p>You may change your direction numerous times while at school and after. You just want to make sure that you are not blind-sided by having only "bum" options when you get out. If you envision yourself happily ensconced in a garret, eking out a living however you can, then go for it. It may not be what mom has in mind, but if it's right for you, all that you owe her, imho, is not to move back home with your duffel bag and teddy bear because you have no other options. </p>

<p>If you want to have a "good job", then keep thinking and planning for how you will get there. You can't know all the answers now. Rather, have a few alternate paths generally outlined in your mind. And refine these alternatives as you go along.</p>

<p>Show your respect to your mother now (who, after all, only wants to be sure you aren't setting yourself up for a life of misery among the huddled masses) by demonstrating to her where your planned studies can lead. But in the end, it is yourself you must please. Realize that the issue your mother is raising is a great help - it is helping you think about where you want to end up and how you will get there.</p>