<p>I think if we all learned to drink before we could drive, maybe we’d have fewer accidents. After all, 14-year-olds can be charged as adults.</p>
<p>I don’t think ANYONE should be allowed to go to war before age 35.</p>
<p>I dont think any one should be allowed to go to war unless the comander in chief is on the field leading the charge and every senator and congressperson is in charge of an active platoon.</p>
<p>So many colleges have supposedly “outlawed” hazing, yet these moronic rituals continue, and teenagers continue to die because of them. What’s the point? Can they not think of ANY better ways to have fun or build camaraderie?</p>
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<p>Did it have the policy at the time of this young man’s death?</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s a good idea to drink to excess. However, what really bothers me is that they failed to get help for him and left him alone to die. The whole point of the amnesty rules is so that you can get help.</p>
<p>The problem is that passing out is so common at frats, these kids really didn’t believe they were endangering him. That’s the problem: passing out from drinking too much is common among our children, high school and college.</p>
<p>I’d bet my last dollar that SAE’s stats are shared by many national frats. It is a bit scary that incidents at Dartmouth, Cornell and Cal Poly all involved SAE, but I think if we took all of the hazing deaths for several years, we’d see an equal number at other national fraternities.</p>
<p>It’s time for these colleges to take a stand and shut down this behavior. Right now they seem to be saying they’ll endure a few deaths to allow the party to keep going.</p>
<p>In September 2004, a dear friend went to college hoping to spend several great years with friends. He believed his new found brothers would be there for him. What they did was different. They caused his death and desecrated his body. </p>
<p>The only thing that is sadder than the death of an amazing young man is that it continues to happen with great regularity. And fwiw, nothing has changed on CC. Some of us speak about the need to address the problem --actually recognize it and admit it exists-- with profound and permanent action. Not the spineless and moronic positions taken by Cornell and Dartmouth that only please the folks who continue to support those criminal organizations that masquerade as student organizations.</p>
<p>Oh, there is no doubt that plenty of apologists will show up to point to other organizations in an attempt to bury the fact that the Greeks are the main culprits. The same trite defense! </p>
<p>The disgrace is still here. It was in 2004 when Gordie was murdered by a bunch of savages. They walked away with a slap on the wrist. And so will the Cornell kids. Someday that sorry SAE chapter be revived.</p>
<p>And the story will be told again. Sooner or later. Next fall, someone WILL die. And nothing will change as long as cynical and spineless college official refuse to understand that the only remedy is to remove those organizations permanently.</p>
<p>Students are adults, they are able to make their own choices. </p>
<p>IMO, nobody should “ban” hazing/drinking in frats. There is fun to be had & the students are adults are capable of making their own decisions. FOr every horrible case you read about there are hundreds of positive ones. It’s silly that people get so up in arms and try to change the whole system…Educate don’t regulate. </p>
<p>It’s like illegalizing alcohol at sporting events because it increases the number of DUI accidents on the roadways. Would it help? Most likely. But should they? no.</p>
<p>another incident … [Police</a> seek charges against Boston University students involved in apparent hazing - Metro Desk - Local news updates from The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrodesk/2012/04/boston-university-students-involved-apparent-hazing-face-expulsion/rtc9z1rQsM7Bvw7CKgkdbM/index.html]Police”>http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrodesk/2012/04/boston-university-students-involved-apparent-hazing-face-expulsion/rtc9z1rQsM7Bvw7CKgkdbM/index.html)</p>
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<p>The first quote is from me. The second is from jonri.</p>
<p>The answer is yes. That policy was in place at the time of George Desdunes’ death. </p>
<p>My daughter, like Oldfort’s daughter, was a Cornell student at that time. But my daughter did not know George and was not involved in the Greek system. Oldfort and others on this board would have better information on this specific incident than I do. What I know is mostly speculation (although the entire campus, including non-Greeks like my daughter, knew that this death was related to alcohol and hazing long before it was officially announced).</p>
<p>I think the person earlier in the thread who pointed out that passing out after drinking is common on campus (and especially in the Greek system) probably got it right. This happens so often that students don’t regard it as an emergency, even though the experts say they should (because there’s no way to determine whether the passed-out person has consumed a fatal amount of alcohol). </p>
<p>So I suspect that the people with George did not realize that he was in danger. They had seen people pass out before with no worse result than a hangover the next day. </p>
<p>It’s also possible that someone might have wondered whether George was in danger but did not consider seeking help for fear of getting into trouble – not because of alcohol but because of hazing. There is no hazing amnesty. But I have no information about whether this might actually have happened.</p>
<p>We live near the University of Washington and it is not uncommon for students (usually fraternity and alcohol related) to either fall off a roof or roll out an open window in the frat sleeping porch to their death. It may be more of a national story at ivies, but it happens everywhere. My sister personally knew a young man who was killed in a roof incident and a different young man who was involved as a pledge in a hazing incident. They were both freshmen and “nice young men” who you wouldn’t pick to be in trouble or make especially bad judgements. It was just sad all around and yes, the alcohol was an issue, but I think the bigger issue was freshman guys in a frat house.</p>
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<p>And when and if the organizations are ever removed from campus, they will form “unofficial” organizations, “underground” per se and the behavior will continue. I don’t have the answer, but the fact remains, greek and non-greek organizations that allow drinking in their culture, will continue to have this issue. I have no answers in to where to make the madness stop. But the fact is, college students and some high school students too, greek and non-greek, not only abuse alcohol but each other, everyday in this country. College students die every year, greek and non-greek. I think there are more public reports on the greek incidents because that is where the micro scope is. Look at this PDF from the University of Texas Office of Student Affairs:</p>
<p><a href=“http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/doscentral/downloads/HazingMemorandum.pdf[/url]”>http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/doscentral/downloads/HazingMemorandum.pdf</a></p>
<p>These are organizations that have had issues with hazing and or alcohol. More than half are are not what we on CC pile as “greek organizations”. Some have greek letter names but are not Panhellenic or Interfraternity Council. Some are business and other professional and academic organizations with greek letters. You will even see the cheerleader squad on this list. The problem is every where. At least UT has the intestinal fortitude to make it public.</p>
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<p>You don’t even have to remove organizations from campus to drive dangerous behaviors underground.</p>
<p>As Oldfort pointed out, this is what may be happening at Cornell. The tighter the restrictions on official Greek activities, the more that members of Greek houses will switch to having unofficial activities in locations other than their official premises. </p>
<p>Even before the policy changes that followed George Desdunes’ death, Cornell had a culture of fraternity and sorority “annexes” (off-campus houses or apartments rented by members of the Greek organziation and used as settings for unofficial parties that didn’t comply with official rules). I suspect that the same sort of thing goes on at other colleges as well. The tighter the rules, the more you push the questionable activities into “annexes,” where there is no supervision and very little control of what goes on.</p>
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<p>This is what shocked me. Mini, do you know what that number is among non-Greeks?</p>
<p>Here is another sad story involving binge drinking and Greek life–
[Spencer</a> Watson Seupel Obituary: View Spencer Seupel’s Obituary by Poughkeepsie Journal](<a href=“Legacy.com”>Spencer Seupel Obituary (1990 - 2012) - High Falls, NY - Poughkeepsie Journal)</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://www.hanknuwer.com/hazingdeaths.html]hazingdeaths[/url”>U.S. Hazing Deaths Database Part 1: 1838-1999 – Hank Nuwer Unofficial Hazing Clearinghouse]hazingdeaths[/url</a>]</p>
<p>the list keeps getting longer</p>
<p>I don’t get it. Can anyone explain the hazing mentality? I look back 40 years ago to when I was in college and there was plenty of rowdiness and binge drinking, but I don’t remember any sadism. (I wasn’t in a fraternity.) Regardless of how smashed we got, I don’t remember anyone taking pleasure in demeaning anyone else. When someone passed out, people–however ineptly and dangerously–tried to watch out for their welfare. No one wrote on their faces with sharpies, took pictures etc.</p>
<p>Why do people pledge to organizations when they know there will, most likely, be some level of hazing? Why do they agree to stay in these organizations after receiving that treatment? Why do they pass along the humiliation to another group?</p>
<p>Is the hazing getting worse, or is it just more publicized?</p>
<p>Signed, </p>
<p>Stumped in Minnesota</p>
<p>[Parents</a> sue UW fraternity for son’s fall from window | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News](<a href=“http://www.komonews.com/news/local/22752229.html]Parents”>http://www.komonews.com/news/local/22752229.html)</p>
<p>Here’s a link to some of the more recent U of W incidents</p>
<p>Also, a list of falls . . .
Chronology of Accidents </p>
<p>• June 2008 - Kevin MacDonald, 21, died at Alpha Sigma Phi
• May 2008 - 20 year old, serious injuries after fall from the roof of Phi Kappa Psi
• April 2005 - Erik Anderson, 19, fell 45 feet at Delta Upsilon
• May 2002 - Brett Jensen, 19, died at Pi Kappa Phi
• March 2001 - Greg Gilbert, 18, died at McMahon Hall
• October 1996 - Billy Price, 19, broke his neck in fall at Alpha Delta Phi
• December 198 - Bryan Foisy, 19, died at McMahon Hall
• September 1987 - Brian Lopez, 18, died at Beta Theta Pi
• May 1986 - Thomas White Jr., 19, died at Alpha Delta Phi
• January 1986 - Erik Heimbigner, 20, seriously hurt at Sigma Alpha Epsilon
• December 1985 - Chad Houck, 18, serious injuries after fall at Haggett Hall dorm</p>
<p>Whenever the drinking age debates begin, many are quick to point out that our memories of college days are faulty, that the rates of binge drinking have stayed steady through the decades.</p>
<p>However: In the movie Hazed, which was produced in response to Gordie Bailey’s death at CU (as a result of hazing related alcohol poisoning), one of the experts consulted in the film had this to say about today’s binge drinking:</p>
<p>While rates of binge drinking as defined by the 4-5 drinks on one occasion standard have remained steady for several decades, binge drinking which involves 10-15-20 drinks in a sitting has risen astronomically in the last decade. Which is what many of have been saying when we recollect our own college days and how they seem so very different from now.</p>
<p>I don’t remember the expert’s name from the film. I plan to watch it again soon with D2, so I will try to make a note of him and his sources.</p>
<p>“This is what shocked me. Mini, do you know what that number is among non-Greeks?”</p>
<p>Don;t have a non-Greek number. The overall percentage is 44%. (For technical reasons that I’ve talked about before, that is likely an underestimate, and the real percentage is closer to 52%.) As Greek binging is much higher, non-Greek will have a statistically significant lower percentage, but how much lower I don;t know.</p>
<p>Nrdsb4’s post is correct. Where it shows up is not in the binge drinking numbers, but in the 'heavy drinking" category - three or more binges in past two weeks, or near daily drinking. (It is also the reason behind the need for the technical adjustment I allude to.)</p>
<p>You CAN ban off-campus fraternities. At Williams, membership in one can result in automatic expulsion.</p>
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<p>Exactly.</p>
<p>The question of definition has a lot to do with many of these statistics.</p>
<p>I, for one, do not understand the impulse towards hazing, especially dangerous, humiliating hazing. I abhor it. But when hazing is so broadly defined that having a “house nickname” or being asked to wear a tie every day during pledge term is considered hazing–and it is–it makes it difficult to have any kind of rational discussion about it on campuses, because groups cannot admit to practices that the vast majority of rational people would consider completely harmless.</p>
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<p>They can ban whatever they want, but it has not ended the hazing issues at Williams. Williams still runs a heavy “anti-hazing” campaign and makes each member of a student organization sign this:</p>
<p><a href=“http://student-life.williams.edu/files/2011/08/Williams-College-Student-Organization-Leadership-AntiHazing-Agreement.pdf[/url]”>http://student-life.williams.edu/files/2011/08/Williams-College-Student-Organization-Leadership-AntiHazing-Agreement.pdf</a></p>
<p>If hazing was a “non-issue” at Williams, why go to the trouble? I am sure the administration of Williams was really disappointed when, upon the banning of greek life, that hazing didn’t pack its ugly bags and go away too.</p>