It’s really the concept of “trust but verify” that we need to instill in our police and prosecutors. They must verify to make a case stick…but they need to start with the ‘trust’ part and the people need to learn to trust that the police and prosecutors will do their job and when a case is over, then we need to understand it’s over. If there are issues then as a society we can do the “what went right, what went wrong” scenario.
So I just read about this case of USC football player http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/15/us/usc-trojans-football-osa-masina-rape-charge/index.html
Let me get this straight @momofthreeboys in NC the Victim has to prove her BAC to get her rape taken seriously and prosecuted? While in CA or Utah they apparently don’t ??? That doesn’t seem right.
Actually it seems spot on to me. She made her claim on the fact she was incapacitated. If her blood alcohol comes back very high…that’s a positive step toward verification of her claim. It sounds like she went for her rape kit quite soon after the incident so her BAC may very well support her claim. Those that wait or never go to the hospital lose that opportunity to prove their incapacitation.
Runswimyoga, I just read the link you posted, but no where does it say she went to the hospital or anywhere that a BAC would have been taken as proof of her incapacitation so now i’m not sure what you are asking me. Maybe rephrase or elaborate?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37365767 I am very puzzled by the NC case. The woman has bruised around her throat that have been pictured around the world, but the university seems more interested in protecting the football player. Is this yet another example of the protection of rapists and the dismissal of violence against women?
It is in the hands of the judicial system as it should be. The football player is on indefinite leave from the team pending the outcome of the investigation and potential trial it sounds like. If he goes to jail he won’t be attending college there. The prosecutor will have the BAC and the photos of the bruises taken during the rape exam (I am assuming those were taken then although do bruises show that fast?) Not sure there is anything the uni needs to do at this point. What do you think the uni should do?
Sorry about the confusion @momofthreeboys - you are right -in the Utah/Usc footballer case they arrested him on the victim’s statement/ rape kit or whatever evidence alone and there is no BAC of hers needed to attempt prosecution… although its clear in her statement to police that she was incapacitated by alcohol and possibly drugs…
That is what I don’t understand w the NC case…Why aren’t the bruises/rape kit/her statement alone enough for the prosecutor to file charges in NC? And yet they are enough in Utah ? Remember the misdemeanor charges were not filed by the prosecutor, they were filed by the victim - so its not clear to me who is doing the prosecution in this misdemeanor case now…
Sorry- maybe I am missing something- I just have never heard of a victim having to prove her BAC as proof of a rape … in order for charges to be filed by the prosecutor… so the fact that she said no to sex isn’t enough??? - she has to be proven drunk when she says no? And this level of proof varies from state to state?
@Demosthenes49 – yes Wendy Murphy does support the college tribunal system, but a few years back she was advocating for not testing the backlogged kits. I believe she also questioned women getting rape kits done at all in certain circumstances. There was a lot of backlash from people like Linda Fairstein who was the former head of the Sex Crimes Unit in Manhattan – rape kits are a universally accepted recommendation for women who believe they were sexually assaulted. I agree that we are talking past each other here, but it was never my contention that the unprocessed kits were the sole reason cases were not being prosecuted. It is just another symptom of a very broken system that seems to just “shrug” at these victims.
We have been on enough of these threads together that I think we understand each other’s position – we just disagree. So rehashing all that is going to be repetitive. But it seems to me that if you characterize the Title IX tribunals as “kangaroo courts” you must also believe that colleges are not competent to adjudicate all the other offenses that occur on their campuses. Offenses such as acts of physical violence or force, racial harassment, drugs, theft, hazing and explosives/weapons cases are adjudicated in an almost identical manner. Same burden of proof, same restrictions on active participation by advisor/attorney, same process for questioning through tribunal members and an almost identical investigative process. These infractions present similar problems of proof, often involve alcohol and carry the same penalties which include suspension/expulsion.
Why is there not the same outcry when a student is expelled for physical violence or hazing? Do you view these hearings as “kangaroo courts” as well?
It is always the prosecutors responsibility to prove the crime occured runswimyoga. The accused is presumed innocent until proved guilty. So clearly the more concrete evidence and corroboration a prosecutor has from the claimant the stronger his/her case will be and more likely a case of criminal sexual assault will be it to trial or a plea.
Yout asked this of Demosthenes but…Perhaps because the evidence is so overwhelming and the accused readily admits the crime and the colleges/universities don’t want public exposure and the guilty party doesn’t want a record so very few every know about it. Do I think that’s “right.?” No. I think if the student breaks criminal law or is accused of something criminal there should be a criminal investigation. If the accused claims not be guilty the accused should be afforded the right of the protection of the law also. If the accused IS guilty of something criminal then as a member of society I want them prosecuted. I have no problem with universities adjudicating cheating and other institutional disputes.
“Why aren’t the bruises/rape kit/her statement alone enough for the prosecutor to file charges in NC? And yet they are enough in Utah ?”
With rare exceptions:
- State criminal law is totally separate and independent from state to state. States can define crimes differently from the get-go. Utah has nothing to do with NC and vice versa.
- Prosecutors in each county/city have independent, unreviewable discretion to make a judgment about what they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt before their local juries.
So you should expect to see different outcomes in different jurisdictions even with identical crimes…and these aren’t identical crimes.
“How is this allowed to happen still??”
I haven’t drilled into the available info on these two cases. But it is very clear and obvious why these things keep on happening.
In order for any kind of prosecution or adjudication system to work, the system requires some measure of reasonable proof. Litigation systems run on proof the way cars run on gas. If you don’t have proof/gas, then nothing can happen. Period.
Acquaintance rape situations, by their nature, usually do not generate much in the way of adequate proof. That basic and fundamental problem is compounded if (as is often the case) the female victim is significantly intoxicated.
So none of you should continue to be surprised that these seemingly failed prosecutions/adjudications keep happening and happening and happening and happening. Even gold standard adjudication systems (whether real courts or college courts) will fail to punish offenders 90+% of the time. Likely, these two cases are part of the 90%.
You still have to litigate as best you can. But if you are essentially stuck with a 90-ish% failure rate, it is pretty dumb to pour all your incremental resources into enhanced litigation processes. If you do put your incremental resources into litigation, it is pretty dumb to expect that these situations will somehow stop happening. Even the most awesomely engineered car won’t run without gas in the tank.
Prevention, bystander training, counseling victims, reforming drinking laws, etc. might make a dent. Being surprised that the improved car still doesn’t run without gas is silly.
We’ll the NC woman has a chance…if her BAC was crazy high to the point where most people would be passed out the prosecutor has a chance and more so if no one saw her that night, she didn’t have a prior relationship with the guy and if the bruise photo date and time fits her complaint timeline. I give this one slightly better odds than the UCLA case unless there is a ton of info on the UCLA case the media hasn’t seized on other than he is a football player with a potential career. The feminist bloggers have been eerily silent on the UCLA case.
Where is the post about UCLA?
I think she means USC (not UCLA) there is a recent USC football player accused of raping someone in Utah
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/15/us/usc-trojans-football-osa-masina-rape-charge/
Details, details.
http://nypost.com/2016/09/15/usc-suspends-alleged-snapchat-rapist/
“Masina allegedly recorded the California incident on his phone. According to TMZ, a search warrant from the investigation states the alleged victim says she later learned Masina sent photos and videos of the sexual encounter to her ex-boyfriend, a football player at Arizona, via Snapchat.”
I haven’t heard anything yet what was found on Masina’s phone.
I am a grad of UNC, Class of '79. I live in NC. What will the university do? All they can to cover up and minimize the damage. How dare an intoxicated coed get a football player in trouble!
The power of college sports in NC? See these quotes from the article at the bottom:
‘It was one thing when the NBA pulled the 2017 All-Star game from Charlotte over North Carolina’s House Bill 2 — a measure widely criticized as discriminatory toward the LGBT community — but mess with college sports in the Tar Heel State, and HB2 might really be in trouble.’
‘On Wednesday, (Sept 14, 2016) the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC) announced it would be relocating all neutral-site championships for the 2016-17 season from North Carolina over the state’s so-called “bathroom law” — legislation best known for barring transgender people from using government building bathrooms in accordance with their gender identities. The most notable championship the decision will cost the state is the ACC’s football title game, which was scheduled to take place in Charlotte.’
We’ll Petula what should the university do. They do not have supoena power. What evidence would they have had plus she had gone to the police and they had suspended him from the football. Being furious at colleges and universities does nothing to solve the perceived problem and only supports that colleges have no business even adjudicating these criminal issues.
Others thanks for correcting my USC vs UCLA mix-up.
momofthreeboys True, UNC does not have subpoena power. That is up to the state. But the player could have been suspended, or removed from the team. Players can get kicked off for far less. According the the victim, the UNC Department of Public Safety spoke with defendant ‘with a tone of comradery. They provided reassurances to him when he became upset. They even laughed with him when he told them how many girls’ phone numbers he had managed to get on the same night he raped me. They told him, ‘don’t sweat it, just keep on living your life and playing football.’"
The player turned himself in this week, yes. He has been suspended, as of September 13. The event occurred over 6 months ago.
The fawning attitude toward college athletics in NC is what I was referencing in my post #35 about NC’s HB2 law. NC has been boycotted by Pay Pal, Bruce Springsteen, Ringo Starr, Cirque du Soleil, Itzhak Perlman, even the NBA. But now that the NCAA and ACC are involved, maybe the law will be repealed.
@PetulaClark maybe I can add some actual facts here. There is plenty UNC should be doing. After reporting this matter to the police and completing a rape kit, Delaney Robinson then filed a complaint with UNC’s Title IX office on March 9. Pursuant to federal regulation UNC had 90 days to investigate and inform Delaney whether they were going to proceed with the formal complaint process and a hearing. They are well beyond the 90 day period and have only advised Delaney’s counsel that they completed the investigation – no other information was forthcoming. So as of now UNC is in breach of their legal obligations under federal law. They need to comply.
Further, when Delaney and her attorney exercised their right to inspect the investigative file they found recorded video of the UNC employees from the Department of Public Safety who interviewed the accused. It allegedly showed this:
UNC should verify that’s what the video/audio shows and should then fire those employees – they are incapable of performing their job functions in an unbiased manner. UNC should also be sharing their investigative report with the police and any evidence they have in their possession.
@HarvestMoon1 Thanks for a much better argument that I made.
My HS senior is not even applying to my alma mater and I don’t blame her.