More rape survivors' letters, more massive failure to take assault victims seriously

Edit to my post #38 to correct that UNC has 90 days to complete investigation pursuant to the Dear Colleague Letter issued by the Department of Education and pursuant to UNC’s own policy.

“According the victim, the UNC Department of Public Safety spoke with defendant 'with a tone of comradery. They provided reassurances to him when he became upset.”

Quite possible that the UNC investigators are biased jerks in the tank for Tar Heel athletes.

But also possible they were giving the accused some “good cop” treatment in order to keep him talking and to get additional information for the investigation.

That could really be important if UNCDPS is actually a police department. I don’t know if they are, but many college cops are in fact real cops. So giving the accused the bad cop treatment might result in the accused saying “I’m not talking to you”, “can I leave now?”, or “I want a lawyer.”

Similarly, asking the victim a lot of specific probing questions could show insensitivity or indifference. Or could be part of legitimate evidence gathering which would be crucial to any future prosecution or adjudication.

Unless you have all the facts about an investigation, it is really hard to know what happened and what went on.

LOL @northwesty – you cut that quote off midstream. Think if you finish it the scenario you suggest is much less likely.

Let’s see if they change their minds about prosecuting this case or proceeding to a Title IX hearing. Such a reversal would tell us a lot about what went on before her attorney took this matter public.

It is possible to speculate that the college did not have enough evidence to render a guilty verdict and were waiting for the prosecutorial decision. Imagine the outcry had they said he is not guilty…or they expell him without evidence and he sues them if the police investigation doesn’t uncover evidence…colleges are really at a disadvantage. They are screwed no matter what they do. Best to let this one play out before picking sides.

North Carolina has a pretty strict interpretation regarding incapacitation so the bac is important…if the police don’t have that the college most likely doesn’t have it.

@momofthreeboys I appreciate your calm approach to this matter, though I may be coming at from a different ‘side.’ (But not really from a different side, as I don’t hear anyone here blaming the girl). But we do have biases. I admit my bias is against the glorification of the whole college sports enterprise. Not really the athletes, because this football player is likely done and will be replaced and forgotten. His purpose at UNC was to play football, and that’s it.

Not that I don’t want to see him prosecuted if that’s where the case goes. Another bias is that I have three daughters, one in college and 2 in high school. My wife and I have talked to them about how there really really are sexual predators on college campuses and you have to be careful. But even if you are comatose drunk nobody has the right to have sex with you, and we will always back you up. And pursue the truth, as Ms. Robinson is doing in this case.

@PetulaClark Just want to share to tell girls beware -
Freshman son had 2 girlfriends last week go to an off campus frat party where they drank from the frat supplied big gatorade thermos (like sports teams use) anyway it was called Jungle Juice -vodka and juices … a friend found the girls trying to walk back to their dorm… they could barely walk … they had only had 1 drink each (and they are experienced at drinking) …they could barely move … upperclassman came by (helped them) and said never drink the jungle juice - they put xanax in it to get the girls in that state… if at a frat party only drink beer from the keg or a bottle.
They know most girls don’t drink beer… it is very common

Anyway girls had been warned to watch their cups and never let anyone put anything in it, but hadn’t ever thought the frat would spike the whole big container… never drink the supplied house drink… you can easily become comatose from it even w 1 drink… its more common than we even think…

@runswimyoga That is very helpful. It seems many HS girls have had some alcohol experience, with friends, and would know the danger of getting drunk. But it may not occur to them that someone is actively trying to drug them, that a few college boys could behave in such a base manner.

@runswimyoga, maybe the police could be given a heads up about that frat?

Next time there is a party… A nice surprise visit from the police. A policeman might want some Gatorade. :wink:

They are also behaving in a manner which is criminal and carries a penalty of incarceration in most states. Many people are allergic to certain drugs or may be taking other medications that are not compatible with xanax – mixing them can cause life threatening reactions. And add alcohol to the mix and things become even more complicated. These young men are seriously misguided.

@runswimyoga – most schools have a process whereby things of this nature can be reported anonymously. No one need know who made the report. If you or your son have reliable information that this is actually taking place you might consider making such a report. Really, you would not only be assisting these young women but saving these young men from themselves. I have to believe they do not understand the seriousness or the potential consequences of their actions.

@HarvestMoon1 thanks- I will most definitely look into that then! When my son first told me, I freaked and I wanted to call the police and the school… my son said NO WAY! He is not taking on a frat. no way no how.

He has been bullied in HS and wants no part of more bullying…when he reported something in HS things got much worse for him… the school tried to protect the sports team at all cost… we had video and tape so they were held accountable, but it was hard to find friends after that -people protect sports stars no matter what they do… He does not want to risk anything. I do not have any faith in school administrations to do the right thing.

Why aren’t others speaking up he wonders…the upperclassman said it was common. The upperclassman was the one that said xanax- I don’t think the kids have anyway of knowing for sure. I am afraid if I go behind his back he won’t ever confide in me again. Its a tough spot to be in. The girls made it back ok and they weren’t actually hurt … but they all knew/felt they had been drugged. It was the first week before school at NSO. I think the school is very aware there is underage drinking going on at these off campus frats as it is not hidden and the school has a reputation for that. Frat culture dominates the school social scene esp for freshman…they are preying upon new freshman…

Its an off campus frat so its not officially recognized by the school- or it was at one time and then lost privileges after that. The school has been having other problems with off campus frats - one sent out an email to freshman girls that was indicative of rape culture . It caused a big controversy.

Son said he didn’t know the actual name of the frat. They only tell the new kids codes like snakes or oz or owls. Son said “Let the girls speak up, Let them complain to the school”. Since he wasn’t actually there, I dropped it. But anonymous would be good. I can do an anonymous tip. How do you think I would go about finding out how one would leave an anonymous tip- what dept would you call?

Many schools have an anonymous tip line number listed on their website --usually on the campus police, public safety or campus security page.

The tip lines are very useful. I agree with you that it is often very difficult for freshmen to take this sort of reporting on. There can be backlash at a time when they are trying to settle in and make friends. So unfortunate that this sort of thing is going on.

“they put xanax in it to get the girls in that state”

Possible but unlikely. Studies show that prevalence of date rape drugs is significantly less than many believe. Alcohol alone is the overwhelmingly most common date rape drug.

The effects of intense alcohol consumption alone are basically identical to the effects of roofies. So why bother with Xanax and roofies which are expensive and harder to obtain. The effects of cheap and easily obtained vodka and Everclear are more than enough to do the trick.

Especially when the jungle juice is being laid on top of a base of self-administered pre-game liquor shots (and perhaps some prescription meds or street drugs). Many of these awful situations involve girls who, in effect, self-roofied themselves with high proof alcohol. Not an excuse for what happened to them, but a big risk factor.

If you can get your daughters to only drink beer or wine, their risk profile will be greatly reduced.

@northwesty, we are talking about a specific case at an off campus frat. There was a very high probabliity xanax was used. Looks like some students know about this.

‘If you can get your daughters to only drink beer or wine, their risk profile will be greatly reduced.’ ‘Many of these awful situations involve girls who, in effect, self-roofied themselves with high proof alcohol.’

Is it just me, or does anybody else find these comments extremely insensitive?

Yeah. Sigh. I wish I lived in a world where a vulnerable and incapacitated person (of either gender) would be seen as someone to protect rather than as someone to exploit. This whole discussion makes me feel sad and afraid for my daughter.

Not really, it is not unusual for kids to pregame. The choice for women is often vodka and many will go to the party with quite a few shots already consumed. Guys drink shots too but they are more likely to drink beer. One son still in colege tells me vodka is the drink of choice for college women these days. I am a tad leery of the xanax story in the punch also but if someone had knowledge of that for fact it should be reported. Someone could die. More likely the young ladies your son encountered pregamed and then drank 151 rum or Everclear or more Vodka in the punch.

@PetulaClark, using the word insensitive is being very polite.

The apologists on this issue are amazing.

Its rape culture. We can read it right here on CC.

I had a friend who was in a frat a long time ago. The guys tried to get the females into a state of incapacitation. Then they had sex with them. One student was gang raped.

I guess some people would rather argue whether xanax was used or something else. Better to argue about the drug of choice instead of rape.

For goodness sakes…you have to be pretty naive to drink punch at ANY college party. That was true in the seventies and true today.

Sheesh. That’s exactly what many of our daughters (and sons) were when we sent them to college at the age of 17 or 18. Like I said, I wish we could believe that innocent, vulnerable people would be protected rather than exploited by their classmates at institutes of higher education. This kind of “blame the victim” attitude sickens me.

@Elliemom, thank you for pointing out these are ‘classmates at institutes of higher education.’ These male students are peers who are attending the same colleges. Is it naive to expect they should treat you like a human being and not a ride at an amusement park? And yes, we should talk to our daughters about the dangers of drinking and drugs at parties, anywhere. They need to have the knowledge, but they are still 18 year-olds, a few years away from their brains being fully workable. This goes for males as well as females.

Regardless of disagreements about this issue, I am glad to be reading this thread. I need to check my own naivety if I want to believe I can ship my D17 off to college on the other side of the country next year and assume she will be totally safe, that someone will be watching her.

Colleges have their hands full with kids this age. But what I cannot excuse is when sexual assaults occur and the main concern of the school is to silence it, keep the school’s reputation clean.