Frankly I find it rather naive not to tell kids not to have a quick 3 or 4 or 5 shots before they head out…then go to party and drink punch which you darn know well is made from vodka and or Grain alcohol. To brush it off and call it victim blaming is really just having your head in the sand. Everyone gets drunk who drinks it…that is the point duh. I don’t care if you are male or female…don’t drink that crap.
‘I find it rather naive not to tell kids not to have a quick 3 or 4 or 5 shots before they head out.’
Not sure I get this. Are recommending kids take 3 to 5 shots before they go out, or not to?
I found the anonymous form - @HarvestMoon1 Moon was right! It is under Dept of Public Safety.
Son is at a conference scheduled to get back to late tonight. I emailed him the link to the form told him to show it to the girls and tell them they cam fill this out if they want … just so they know they have the option. I told him he has the option too if he wants… even though he wasn’t there- he did see the girls afterwards. He can say he heard a story x about an off campus frat maybe public safety should check it out.
He said no one pre games bc they can’t buy the alcohol -he said the guys drink beer at the parties and the girls drink the punch.
He had no idea not to drink the punch - he said he knew not to set his drink down anywhere and to watch for someone putting something in his cup but he has never heard that you can’t drink the punch bc they might spike the whole container with something.
Maybe there wasn’t anything drug wise in the punch- maybe the punch was potent from higher alcohol or something. I don’t know.
I do know that this scared the blank out of him. and the upperclassman said it was common. Maybe he was just trying to scare them?
In the meantime I am telling anyone I can to make sure the kids know not to drink the punch. Just in case.
There isn’t a parent on this forum who doesn’t tell their children to avoid excessive consumption of alcohol. It is what we ALL teach our children. The problem is that sometimes they listen and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they get carried away or simply do not yet understand their limits–that’s part of being 17 or 18 years old for most of them. I don’t have a lot of confidence that we will be able to change the drinking culture that is so engrained in our university system.
The consequences for women (mostly) for having too much to drink should never be sexual assault. This is the part of the equation that we need to focus on and change. And the only way to do that is to get more women to report and then bear down on the universities to hold those responsible accountable.
The number of women who are now willing to come forward publicly seems to be on the rise. They are no longer ashamed and are no longer hiding or blaming themselves for being assaulted. I see some progress.
It has always been the accepted wisdom, among those in the know, not to drink the punch. Only drink from a can or bottle you have opened yourself. Maybe a keg if you watch it poured… maybe.
So - don’t drink the punch.
But my suggestion is to just quit going to these parties all together. I would like to encourage young women not to go to parties where folks understand you shouldn’t drink the punch, because it may be drugged. Do something else instead. Quit partying with those guys.
edit: I’m not telling our kids not to party, just not to party at houses where upperclassmen assume no one should drink the punch.
Really, how did it ever become the norm that we attend parties where we can’t even drink the punch?? Is that anyway to treat invited guests? Make them sick and take advantage of them?
But unfortunately those first few months of freshman year it just seems to be what the social life revolves around - frat parties. And I do think the allure wears off after that first year. I know my own D was put off by all the cheap liquor and beer at these parties. She couldn’t stomach any of it. Said the beer was something they called “natty light” and it was just awful. Turns out it is very cheap beer. This year she seems to be going to a few frats on Thursday nights when her sorority has been invited for wine. She said these are smaller gatherings and she really enjoys them. No one gets drunk at all.
Fraternity houses will have reputations. We have discussed this before on these threads and recommended first year students ask older students which houses to avoid. I am posting it again for the parents new to these threads.
First year students are at risk for sexual assault. Some fraternities target them. Avoid those fraternities.
I don’t think all the fraternities are bad, but there will be a learning curve. Strongly recommend your kids ask for advice on this.
That’s true. And I’m not anti-frat at all, because I think it’s a more general problem than that. But I still think it’s an indictment of the culture that “rapey” is now part of the standard college lexicon to describe some guys or groups of guys.
I kind of like that now we describe them as “rapey” so young women have some warning. It’s always been a huge problem, but now we are acknowledging it. Maybe now we name it, we can change it. If no one goes to their parties, that changes the culture. imho.
I’m with HarvestMoon. How did this ever become a norm? Let’s change it.
I think it comes down to peer pressure that first semester. They are new on campus and want to fit in. At a lot of schools the frats do dominate the social scene. As everyone settles in and finds friends those parties become less and less important. Now the formals are a different story…
So what do you propose we do HarvestMoon1? I’ve heard some people speak of suspending any accused perpetrator from campus and academic life until investigations are over, but I personally think this would go very much against our constitutional rights as innocent until proven guilty. Many situations are word against word (Most exceptions being student athletes, an issue that is wrong on so many levels), I would just be curious to see statistically how many of these are the targeted attacks seen in “The Hunting Ground” or just two drunk college kids being a bit touchy feely and feelings get hurt. This is a real issue that needs to be addressed, but I think the two mediums it will be most fought on are the greek houses and the football field, and not treated as an epidemic that requires reforming our rights.
@alh writes ‘First year students are at risk for sexual assault.’ Succinct and convincing. Because I think what can get left out here is that these are KIDS, usually living away from home for the first time. We as adults can look back and say, don’t drink the punch, stupid, but we are not in their place.
I am the father of 3 daughters, one in college and two in HS. If I had sons, I’d be having a different conversation, just as serious, warning them about getting drunk with a girl and getting accused of something, no matter the original intent. I agree with multiple posters above, it’s the culture that is the problem, and needs to be changed. And one way, maybe the only way to do that is to hold victimizers accountable.
We’ll, in Hunting Ground it could be argued…and some Harvard Law Profs did argue that Kamilah Willingham was not the real victim and that the real victim was the young man she accused. So it is sometimes difficult to figure out who the victims are with any clarity.
@psyhicphysics I think we are on the right track encouraging more women to speak up and report. And I do see this happening in greater frequency. As far as campus sexual assault is concerned, I fully support the college tribunal system which adjudicates cases involving students. Except in perhaps some very extreme circumstance, I am not aware of any school that suspends an accused pending an investigation. Nor have I heard any suggestion that they do so. Some athletic departments do have rules that might affect an athlete’s ability to play, but they are individual to each school.
I don’t really have any idea how many of the campus assault cases involve “greek houses” or the “football field.” I think those are the cases that get the most press – not sure if there is any hard data on what the numbers really look like. But I am not a great believer in the “these are just two drunk college kids being a bit touchy feely and feelings get hurt” line of thinking. It is my own belief that there are very few cases of total fabrication – not saying there are none, just very few. The downside for a woman who reports an assault on a college campus is too great. Her life is not going to be pleasant going forward.
The law says you need consent. You either have it or you don’t. So both men and women need to come to the realization that there are huge risks associated with having a sexual encounter with someone who has been drinking excessively. Communication can fail in those circumstances. As more cases are reported and investigated either by the police or the colleges themselves, I am hopeful that men and women will begin to come to the conclusion that it is just not worth the risk.
“It is my own belief that there are very few cases of total fabrication”
I agree with you. But I think there are a lot of cases where after-the-fact feelings and experiences affect memory.
“The downside for a woman who reports an assault on a college campus is too great.”
This is true for some. It isn’t always. Lots of accusers go through the process quietly; others deliberately go public and make a name for themselves. Being “outed” against your will can happen on either side of an accusation, but it is far from universal.
I was just referencing some statistics given in a report by the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/sexual-assault-poll/. Most of it is poll based (Not the most solid base), but what strikes me the most about it is some of the statistics related to nonverbal consent. Having been through the North Carolina Sexual Education and subsequent rape prevention programs, verbal consent is essentially the only consent that holds up in courts of law. This alone leads to essentially a word vs word contest, which does not justify any punishment given by our horrible justice system(Ridiculous double standards for the Rich vs Poor(What got Brock Turner free), White vs Black, Man vs Woman). Going back to what Hanna said, there have been too many cases that went public for the sake of damaging the accused’s reputation(Duke Lacrosse, UVA fraternities), and I think many women fear of begin accused of that.
There may be some cases like that, but that would be a very hard thing to quantify with any degree of accuracy. My own thought is that with the campus assault cases, there is no “attachment” between the two students involved – most have just met that night or knew each other very casually. Not sure that scenario is going to produce any expectations – it seems to be the prevailing culture accepted by this generation. There also may be some ego involved when an accused chalks it up to “oh she’s angry and vengeful because I ignored her the next day.” Really? Says who? That’s an easy way to try and turn the tables.
I think there is a huge difference between a Delaney Robinson and an Emma Sulkewicz. And with the latter I am not entirely certain that she started out deliberately seeking to make a name for herself. I think it morphed into that with the help of the press. And for better or worse she became the face of campus sexual assault.
I am the father of 3 daughters, one in college and two in HS. If I had sons, I’d be having a different conversation, just as serious, warning them about getting drunk with a girl and getting accused of something, no matter the original intent. I agree with multiple posters above, it’s the culture that is the problem, and needs to be changed. And one way, maybe the only way to do that is to hold victimizers accountable.
Petula: I am the mother of grown sons and I raised them to be aware of rape culture and fight back against it. When one of my sons called to tell me he was joining a fraternity, his first words were: “it’s one of the good ones” and his next words were a list of reasons why I shouldn’t be upset about him joining that particular group, given what he had been hearing from me about fraternities his whole life.
My brothers, cousins, father, uncles, grandfathers; were all fraternity members. And one son, who recognizes and fights back against rape culture. There was no punch at his house.
The problem here is that even one is a travesty. College students have few rights, and those they do have aren’t adequately explained. They’re allowed, even encouraged, to give statements that will be used against them that no decent lawyer would allow. There is no “innocent until proven guilty.” The accused have to prove they’re innocent. How do you prove a negative? Or settle a “he said/she said?” There is zero burden of proof, and my understanding is that if the school finds for the accused the accuser can appeal, effectively trying the accused twice for the same crime. And I disagree that the accuser’s life will be “unpleasant.” They can falsely accuse another student with impunity.
It will get better. The egregious stories and exposure shed light…no one has the right, male or female, student or administrator to ruin someone’s life unchecked.