<p>(From today's Daily Dartmouth)</p>
<p>"According to Furstenberg, informing students of their acceptance early allows them more time to learn about Dartmouth and helps push the College to the front of the minds of the particularly talented applicants that receive the letters."</p>
<p>"More than 500 "likely letters" again this year"</p>
<p>Byerly,</p>
<p>you are so transparent, however useful you may be!</p>
<p>Question to Byerly: is your dad bigger than my dad?</p>
<p>Byerly: Hold on and Ill do a google search to post a link that proves it!</p>
<p>Casual observers: What a funny little guy!?</p>
<p>kalikescope: Yes, every post has a spoken, unspoken or even subversive H bias to it. But I for one appreciate how he bird-dogs the statistical admissions information. He's relentless. And I think he would be among the first to admit that Dartmouth is an excellent school, though we all know his favorite.</p>
<p>I think very highly of Dartmouth.</p>
<p>I do not think highly of the 'likely letter' device.</p>
<p>I give Dartmouth great credit, however, for being open about their use of the device, while other schools are not.</p>
<p>With the widespread use of 'likelies', what we have is a new class of admits:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Regular EA/ED admits;</p></li>
<li><p>'Likely' admits, who are the functional equivalent of "open EA" admits;</p></li>
<li><p>Deferred EA/ED admits;</p></li>
<li><p>Regular ED admits;</p></li>
<li><p>Waitlist admits.</p></li>
</ol>
<hr>
<p>Consider: We do not, of course, know the expected yield rate for the 500 "likelies" - but if all were to matriculate, they would fill 2/3 of the remaining 725 slots, with nearly 400 having been admitted earlier via ED.</p>
<p>Byerly: What's the downside to this policy? Whether at Dartmouth or any other school, the entire pool is being considered and acceptances are being awarded. </p>
<p>What's the reason for the artificial April 1 notification date? Seems overly long to wait. Why not make it March 1?</p>
<p>so if 500 are out, how many RD spots are left?? I really hope to get one :(</p>
<p>The school is going to admit roughly 2000 students to yeild 1070 for the freshman class be cause they know that everyone admitted (even getting likely letters) are not going to matriculate</p>
<p>Stop taking us for idiots by writing disclaimers like, "I think highly of Dartmouth." I don't care if you make posts like this, because it's after all true, but if you do don't expect anyone here to think you "think highly of Dartmouth."</p>
<p>First - lets face it: this really is just moving up the admit date for a fraction of the applicants, via a device intended to get around the formal April 1 date.</p>
<p>The trouble is, the usefulness of the device is largely dependent upon the competitors' failure to respond in kind ... which obviously will not be the case - at least for very long.</p>
<p>What's so magic about April 1, Joemama asks: why couldn't it be March 1? Indeed. But why not September 1? Or the day after PSAT scores are reported?</p>
<p>Furstenberg candidly acknowledges that the goal is to, in effect, slip in ahead of the "competition" in trying to recruit certain desirable students. That's the reason other schools use 'likelies', too.</p>
<p>But if EVERYBODY adopts the same tactic, and its use continues to expand exponentially, what happens? That's why they set the April 1 common admit date in the first place.</p>
<p>Unless there is some agreement to stop this blatant violation of the April 1 date, then the system may fall apart altogether, and what we will end up with, IMHO, is a system of rolling admissions, with schools vying to see who can start the process earliest.</p>
<p>Perhaps at some point schools will be "signing" promising 6th graders to contracts, like the National Hockey League, and starting "farm teams" to prepare their draftees for the big leagues.</p>
<p>I fail to see how the end result of this trend will be good for students - or even for the colleges themselves.</p>
<p>Yale, Cornell, Williams, and Amherst all use likely letters (okay, Williams calls their letter Early write). Brandeis is currently giving out likely letters to their "blue ribbon " candidates, some are even finding out htat they have been awarded scholarships.</p>
<p>i know that you already know that the April 1 common date was established by the Ivy league in regards to recruiting athletes, so they would not feel pressured to accept someone's admission. The date just stuck, other colleges followed suit.</p>
<p>The Joint Statement for Candidates on Common Ivy Group Admission Procedure </p>
<p>does indeed recognize likely letters.</p>
<p>( I just happen to like Cornell's joint statement because it is more comprehensive)</p>
<p>The Ivy Group is an association of eight institutions of higher education,
established in 1954 primarily for the purpose of fostering amateurism in
athletics. Representatives of these institutions now meet regularly at a
variety of levels to discuss academic, athletic, admissions and many other
topics.
Each member institution has its own identity and character and protects
its right to pursue its own educational objectives. Thus, although the Ivy
Group institutions are similar in many respects, each member institution
makes its own independent admission decisions according to its own particular
admissions policy.
At the same time, as the transition between secondary school and higher
education has become increasingly complex, we believe it is helpful to
simplify the process through more uniform admissions procedures. We
hope that by outlining carefully the procedures under which we operate,
and by clearly specifying the obligations of both the applicant and the
institution, we can help students pursue their college interests free of
unnecessary confusion and pressure.</p>
<p>d. An institution may send a likely probabilistic communication letter
to a candidate (whether or not the applicant is a recruited studentathlete) only if the applicant has submitted all of the materials which the institution requires in order to make an admissions decision.</p>
<p>Byerly, thanks for your thoughts. Home with a cold today, so this is fun.</p>
<p>Since the vast majority of legitimate candidates for the Ivy League schools don't really need their 1st semester senior year to qualify, why not March 1st or February 1st, even December 15th? The April date is a holdover from a bygone era when senior performance mattered more in the decision. </p>
<p>If the Ivy schools can agree on a more reasonable date, there is less liklihoood of any school taking advantage of the system.</p>
<p>Farm teams? Aren't there a whole bunch of those already--the pricey, prestigious Prep schools on the East coast?</p>
<p>Sybbie: Brown, Duke and others send likely letters too. Why did you leave them out?</p>
<p>You are behind the times.</p>
<p>The top prep schools are not the exclusive farm teams they once were...</p>
<p>BUT... the concept is very much alive. Don't have the links handy at the moment, but SEVERAL of the Ivies have indeed developed "working relationships" with certain 2 year schools in the south, to which they steer promising URM admits in need of a little polishing.</p>
<p>After a year or two, the "recruits" are steered up the pipeline to the "sponsoring" big league squad. </p>
<p>This is the TRUTH! Sometimes stranger than fiction.</p>
<hr>
<p>To Sybbie:</p>
<p>The April 1 date has nothing to do with recruited athletes. It has existed for eons. Rather, the "likely letter" was developed (pioneered by Princeton, then written into the Ivy rules after some discussion) so that Ivies wouldn't lose so many recruits to athletic scholarship-granting schools issuing "commitment letters" during the "early signing period." Kids needed more than the "possibility" of later admission to Princeton in order to turn down a full-ride to Duke, for example.</p>
<p>Hi Joe,</p>
<p>Didn't know (I'll admit to dealing from a limited frame of reference) I knew about Williams becasue daughter got an early write last ear the day after her Dartmouth likely and while she did not get a likely from Amherst (had a little aganst because it was one of her top choices) she got admitted there also. (worked at Cornell, so I knew about their likely letters). Daughter did not apply to Duke or Brown , so for me there was no need to know (no snub intended) </p>
<p>Hope you are feel better soon :)</p>
<p>Thanks sybbie. You're a calming voice on this thread. Glad you're here.</p>
<p>I think all the Ivy's should move up the notification date (to at least March 1st), but keep the May 1st decision date. That way admits can think through their options better. Also would allow more planning to attend "Admit Week" type activities in April.</p>
<p>I agree with that especially with the whirlwind of visits tht happen back to back in such a short period of time before someone has to make a decision. Daughter did not want to make a decision until she returned from Dimensions which was April 22-25. As students I that you have little time to process everything and sleep on it before sending in your intent to enroll.</p>
<p>I do agree with Byerly (shocking isn't it, but hey I got love for you as sometimes you are very informative but the message gets lost in putting down the various schools on whose sites you post) that EA has simply become RD with an earlier admission date.</p>
<p>I have never, EVER "put down" any school, with the possible exception of Reed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Here's the problem with likely letters.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree with you, I'm not a big fan of likely letters either. I don't think that they are a good idea for many reasons. However, your posts are continually full of barely repressed hostility. That's my problem with you.</p>
<p>"I have never, EVER "put down" any school, with the possible exception of Reed."- Byerly</p>
<p>(re Byerly)"Yes, every post has a spoken, unspoken or even subversive H bias to it" - I am in full agreement.</p>
<p>Proof (from a previous post):</p>
<p>The PR in their latest published rankings of the "Toughest Schools to Get Into" had the following results: 1. MIT 2. Princeton 3. CalTech 4. Yale 5. Harvard. In response to the PR rankings Byerly stated the following:</p>
<p>"silly PR "rankings" (biggest party school, most tree-huggers, toughest to get into, best food, etc) based on tiny, non-scientific returns from survey forms handed out on street-corners at various campuses, on which respondents rate only <em>their own school</em> and don't (how could they anyway?) compare their school to any others."</p>
<p>The reality (from PR itself) is as follows:</p>
<p>"Admissions Selectivity Rating
This rating measures how competitive admissions are at the school. This rating is determined by several institutionally-reported factors, including: the class rank, average standardized test scores, and average high school GPA of entering freshmen; the percentage of students who hail from out-of-state; and the percentage of applicants accepted. By incorporating all these factors, our Admissions Selectivity Rating adjusts for "self-selecting" applicant pools. University of Chicago, for example, has a very high rating, even though it admits a surprisingly large proportion of its applicants. Chicago's applicant pool is self-selecting; that is, nearly all the school's applicants are exceptional students. This rating is given on a scale of 60-99. Please note that if a school has an Admissions Selectivity Rating of 60*, it means that the school did not report to us all of the statistics that go into the rating by our deadline. "</p>
<p>Yeah, Byerly, I'm sorry that H was only 5th on the Toughest To Get Into list. I'll try not to think less of it, although the temptation will most certainly be there.</p>
<p>By the way, what problems do you have with Reed?</p>