Morehead Foundation Gets $100 million gift...renamed

[reflectivemom]

<p>I applaud the colleges who offer merit based scholarships to those students who can't demonstrate financial "need" according to the formulas but, in reality, need such aid.</p>

<p>Some, on this thread, seem to equate those who benefit from merit scholarships as wealthy elites taking food from the mouths of the poor. Please! Take a look at financial need formulas - they are arbitrary beyond belief. In no way are they a "fair" methodology for determining need.</p>

<p>There are many kids whose EFC is beyond the capability of their family - thus the merit scholarships may be the only way these students can afford to attend college. </p>

<p>Their are plenty of kids - some whose parents regularly contribute to this website - who benefit from very generous financial aid under the current formulas. These parents, in some cases, have educations and degrees from premier elite educations, yet made the CHOICE to work in fields with smaller salaries. Some CHOSE to spend rather than save. </p>

<p>Some CHOSE to place their savings in very expensive homes which may or may not be counted in the methodology. Some CHOSE to quit work a few years before college applications. </p>

<p>And, guess what, some of these individuals who qualify for full financial need due to more modest salaries actually have very generous retirement programs with health benefits! Programs that will allow them to live a much superior life than those without such - who might be paid more. </p>

<p>Some of the self-employed they can "shield" their savings in "qualifying retirement accounts". Others can do neither, because of other arbitrary laws and rules. Yet,with no retirement and no health care benefits manage to save for both in traditional accounts - but are then expected to drain them to pay tuition. </p>

<p>Some families recently advanced into the salary ranges that limit their "need" - not long enough to save enough to pay their "EFC. Similarly, there are those in positions/industries with widespread layoffs due to constant mergers/acquisitions - they must save when they work for times when they don't. If their application happens to fall in the period where they are employed - they lose.</p>

<p>And, at least these kids who qualify for "merit scholarships" know that their performance in college directly affects their ability to stay. Unlike some who receive full financial aid - regardless of their performance.</p>

<p>These merit scholarships are not just "discounts" given to the wealthy who ask for them. The chances are slim, the process incredibly competitive - harder than admission to the elites. I know many kids who were admitted to the elites but haven't been able to secure a major merit scholarship at the next tier.</p>

<p>I congratulate those schools attempting to meet this "need".</p>

[jack]

<p>reflectivemom: Yes, nicely put. Excellent points, all. I have stated this before elsewhere, but I will repeat again. I am in awe of and thankful for the benefactors who possess both the generosity and the vision to endow such scholarships.</p>

<p>In addition, I think students who are awarded merit scholarships must feel, and rightly so, that they truly "own" their education.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>reflectivemom,</p>

<p>Very well written. I agree with most, if not all, of the points you mentioned.</p>

[hoedown]

<p>
[quote]

Too bad nobody is interested in providing scholarship funds for lower income students.

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</p>

<p>This is simply not supportable. UNC led the way with the Carolina Covenant.</p>

<p>I am not sure that your statements about students reported in the CDS is relevant. First of all, the reason that many students are not found to have any need at UNC is that UNC was historically pretty well-supported by the state and its tuition was low. If tuition is low, than fewer people are going to be quaified as having need.</p>

<p>It is also important to understand that some students gap themselves. Sometimes the University offers to meet a students' full need, but students turn some of it down. Families may turn down loans and use other resources (which did not have to be reported on the FAFSA) to finance their educations instead. When aid is reported, these students appear to be gapped. But it was not the institution's doing.</p>

<p>But to some extent, all of this is irrelevant to your complaint. You said that no one cares about aid for lower-income students. With the Carolina covenant, UNC is serving low-income students admirably. Full need is met, and with no loans. They have since been followed by other institutions, such as UVa and Michigan. </p>

<p>I think your general message has some merit--look at the stuff put out by Lumina and the "Measuring Up" reports that discuss this concern about lack of aid to lower-income students. But it's neither accurate or fair to make such a blanket charge as you have, and it's particularly unfair (IMHO) to make that swipe at U-NC.</p>

[1sokkermom]

<p>Interesteddad,</p>

<p>We actually had some personal experience with the Morehead a few years ago. From our experience, it appeared that (at the time) the Morehead was being used by UNC to increase diversity and was being used to provide aid to needy students who qualified for financial aid. </p>

<p>My S was nominated by his school for the Morehead. Granted, his school was what you may call an "elite" institution. He was told by his GC that he was the most qualified nominee from the school that she had seen based on the criterion set forth for this "competition". Two years prior to his nomination, both nominees from his school had been offered the Morehead. Both declined and matriculated elsewhere.</p>

<p>Both prior nominees were minority applicants who qualified for financial aid at both his elite high school and college. One kid was hispanic from LA, the other was a poor African American from PA. They both went on to Ivy league institutions on full financial aid!</p>

<p>S did not qualify for financial aid at the time. He is a caucasian middle class kid. At the time, it appeared that this "merit" award did take in to consideration the financial status of the applicant. Maybe that has changed, maybe not. Maybe it was coincedence. We think not.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>
[quote]
Take a look at financial need formulas - they are arbitrary beyond belief. In no way are they a "fair" methodology for determining need.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
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I congratulate those schools attempting to meet this "need".

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</p>

<p>How can a formula be arbitrary? What is YOUR definition of arbitrary? Is it "subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion" or is it "capricious, unreasonable, unsupported?" The formula is a formula. </p>

<p>The reality is that the entire system of financial aid is based on providing assistance to the individuals who need it, but is not based on correcting individual choices nor is it based on removing the ultimate and primary responsibility of the families.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, lulled by a system of indirect funding of K-12, most families expect colleges to provide universal and reasonable access. The "allowed" inflation of college expenses and subsequent "discounting" is a big part of the current malaise that pits about everyone against his or her neighbor. </p>

<p>In the end, only an extremely small fraction of students and their families are sheltered from the runaway expenses. Students with a zero EFC face a set of issues, that are different from the high middle classes, but still difficult. </p>

<p>There is no black on white truth. Interesteddad is correct in his assessment that historically financial assistance has been directed at the poorest and that a departure from this basic premise is ... disturbing. Other posters who applaud the institutions that offer some relief to the middle class are also correct. </p>

<p>However, none of this really addresses the basic problems of unmitigated and rampant increases of costs and lack of accountability at the schools! The fact that a PRIVATE donor needs to step to the plate is in itself an indictment of a deficiency at an institution and not necessarily an endorsement of its policies.</p>

[eadad]

<p>interestedad</p>

<p>"We kicked the tires at UNC-CH. Liked it a lot. But, at $27,000+, with a student/faculty ratio of 14/1, and 30% of its class sections taught by TAs, it's a very poor value for out-of-state students. Different value equation entirely for in-state students.</p>

<p>If it weren't a poor value, they wouldn't need to offer the Morehead price discounts to attract top out-of-state students."</p>

<p>I'm not sure where you get your UNC information but I am a OOS parent of a Morehead who is currently a junior. He has never had a class "taught" by a TA. He has had several recitations or labs in science classes that were directed by TAs as an adjunct to a class taught by a professor but certainly not taught by them. In fact, freshman year his advanced calculus class (he got a 5 on AP BC calculus) had 55 students and was taught by a full professor. His best friend from HS, at Wharton taking the same class was one of 300 plus, taught by a grad student TA. I certainly think the educational experience and value falls to UNC here. His HS classmates at Ivies have had far more exposure to TAs than he has had his first two and one half years.</p>

<p>I really find it amazing how many people on CC are so quick to deride public institutions as being somehow inferior to private schools. My son turned down Yale to accept the Morehead. He is far from alone in this. There are many students (instate and OOS) at UNC who have turned down "more elite" schools to accept merit money at UNC and graduate either debt free or with far less debt than they would have had. He plans to attend med school where there is little-to-no money available and saw the opportunity to get a great education debt free to hard to pass up.</p>

<p>He has never regretted his decision, and honestly today says he couldn't even see himself there. I had the most reluctance and hardest time getting over Yale and the fact that I wouldn't be able to put a Yale sticker in the window of my car. Seeing how happy he is, how engaged he is in his classes and the relationships he has established with professors and peers alike and the overall undergraduate experience he has had makes me wonder why I had so much agita and brain damage beforehand.</p>

<p>1 sokkermom</p>

<p>On your thought that your family's financial situation precluded merit money at UNC.....it may have precluded pure need based financial aid but I hardly think it was a factor in merit money awards. My son's roommate for two years is the son of a full partner at large Georgia law firm who would have a hard time justifying financial need. He is attending UNC on a Davie scholarship.</p>

<p>xiggi</p>

<p>I responded to your post in the other forum.</p>

[1sokkermom]

<p>"He is attending UNC on a Davie scholarship."</p>

<p>That may be different than the Morehead. I don't know anything about other merit awards at UNC. Geographical diversity is probably looked at with some of these awards. UNC probably gets a lot of OOS kids from the northeast with excellent credentials applying because it is known to be a good school and in a good location! (Maybe they don't have to cater as much to the kids from the NE, because they can fill the NE OOS quota without merit enticements.)</p>

<p>They may not get as many super achievers applying from Georgia. ;)</p>

[tyr]

<p>
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UNC probably gets a lot of OOS kids from the northeast with excellent credentials applying because it is known to be a good school and in a good location!

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</p>

<p>Are you assuming the students from the south are not capable or recognizing that UNC is "a good school" in "a good location"?</p>

<p>
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Maybe they don't have to cater as much to the kids from the NE, because they can fill the NE OOS quota without merit enticements.

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</p>

<p>Contrary to your rationale, you would find that students from the northeast are well represented among the recipients of merit scholarships from UNC.</p>

<p>
[quote]
They may not get as many super achievers applying from Georgia.

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</p>

<p>This certainly explains why there were more students from Georgia on UNC's Dean's List last semester than students from New York.</p>

[jack]

<p>interesteddad: I also have to respond to your post #29 about the TA's. My daughter, who is a sophomore at UNC-CH, has always had professors teaching her courses. She has never had a TA, except in recitations (such as foreign language courses). The TA's she has had in these language courses have been native speakers of the language, and--from what I understand--they've been outstanding. Again--like eadad's son, she has never had a course taught by a TA while there. Her undergraduate experience at UNC, thus far, has truly been outstanding--all the way around. She, too, has had some wonderful experiences and opportunities there and, frankly, is happier than I've ever seen her. </p>

<p>I really do have to wonder also where you get your ideas about UNC-CH (and why you seem to have an axe to grind here with this particular school.)</p>

<p>I'd also like to add that your suggestion that they "need" to offer a scholarship, like the Morehead, "to attract top out-of-state students," is a bit silly. The Morehead has been awarding scholarships since 1951. I believe they have had a total, since 1951, of ~2600 scholars. On average, that's about 50 scholars per year. One-half of those are usually in-state students. So, this is really a very, very small percentage of students who receive this prestigious award each year. I will add, too, that I have known both in-state and out-of-state students who have been nominated for the Morehead, moved all the way to the finalist stage of this nomination, and did not receive the Scholarship. Many of those students chose to attend UNC-CH anyway.</p>

<p>sokkermom: I honestly don't think geographical diversity and finances are considered with these particular merit scholarships. I don't know that for sure, but I'd be very, very surprised if that were true. Just cross-posted with tyr's comments-- good points.</p>

[1sokkermom]

<p>"This certainly explains why there were more students from Georgia on UNC's Dean's List last semester than students from New York."</p>

<p>Like I said, the kids from Georgia could be the super achievers that are attending UNC because they GOT the merit aid. The NY kids may not be as smart to begin with. The smarter NY kids probably matriculated elsewhere. :)</p>

<p>P.S. ^ It's a joke! </p>

<p>I've never seen a breakdown of who gets merit scholarships, how much, or where they are from. That information would be interesting. I wonder if a complete list is posted somewhere? It would also be interesting to see how many of these "merit" awards went to kids who did not qualify for financial aid.</p>

[eadad]

<p>Regarding the immediate impact of the Cain family gift, this is from today's Daily Tar Heel:</p>

<p>"The Morehead Foundation received a $100 million donation, almost doubling the foundation's endowment, officials announced Tuesday.</p>

<p>The gift, given by the Texas-based Cain Foundation, will enable at least 25 more UNC students to receive the prestigious scholarship each year. The foundation and scholarship also have been renamed the Morehead-Cain Foundation and the Morehead-Cain Scholars Program.</p>

<p>"It is the most generous and heartfelt gift," said Lucy Chatham, chairwoman of the combined foundation.</p>

<p>The Morehead scholarship was established in 1951 and covers all tuition, fees and books plus a stipend and laptop for selected students during a four-year period.</p>

<p>Chatham said Mary Cain decided to donate to the Morehead Foundation to continue the legacy of her husband, Gordon, who held similar philosophies to John Motley Morehead. Both put strong emphasis on education and were successful in the chemical industry.</p>

<p>"It brings together the resources of men of similar backgrounds," she said at the announcement.</p>

<p>Fifty students received Morehead scholarships last year, and usually those scholarships are split in half between out-of-state students and in-state students, though residence is not a factor in determining eligibility. The freshman class of fall 2007 will see between 75 and 80 Morehead Scholars.</p>

<p>"I have seen this program change dramatically, but incrementally," said Tim Burnett, vice chairman of the foundation and a 1958 Morehead Scholar. "What this gift does - there's nothing incremental about it. It's transformative."</p>

<p>University administrators and Morehead alumni said the gift will bring a greater pool of talented students to UNC.</p>

<p>"This is going to enable the program to be bigger and better in a sense," said Steve Jones, dean of the Kenan-Flagler Business School and a 1974 Morehead Scholar. "It's very, very rare that you can do both."</p>

<p>Chatham called the Morehead Foundation the "gold standard" of merit-based scholarship programs, and Chancellor James Moeser said it has been an integral part of UNC's history.</p>

<p>"It helped transform the University into a national university," Moeser said, adding that if the Morehead Foundation were the gold standard, "Morehead-Cain becomes the platinum standard."</p>

<p>UNC also is a national leader for need-based aid with Carolina Covenant, which allows low-income students to graduate debt-free.</p>

<p>Morehead scholarship recipients also said they are excited about the donation, saying more students now will be able to have the same positive experiences they've had.</p>

<p>Part of the scholarship program includes participating in an internship each summer, ranging from volunteering to researching.</p>

<p>The internship requirement was announced during Jones' senior year in college. "I wasn't disappointed at all that I was missing it; I was just glad it was happening," he said.</p>

<p>"The reason I came back to the University </p>

[ldmom06]

<p>I'll concur with jack and eadad...At UNC-CH, so far, ldgirl has not had any TAs for lectures or labs and has only had TA in a foreign language recitation. In fact, she is a freshman honors student and she has had full professors and honors advisors from the Johnston Center as instructors. I believe she has had only one large intro class....but this large class had a very small recitation group. This semester, her honors bio lecture has only 35 students. One great thing about the honors program is that you don't to be in the program to take honors courses.... and the selection of honors classes is quite impressive.</p>

<p>Also she has had one or two international professors, but NEVER has there been a language barrier.</p>

[tyr]

<p>
[quote]
Like I said, the kids from Georgia could be the super achievers that are attending UNC because they GOT the merit aid.

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</p>

<p>I would not think that a total of 25 or so significant merit scholarships (annually) to OOS students (excluding the Morehead and Robertson scholarships) are going to significantly alter the dynamics of a population of over 16,000 students. :)</p>

[interesteddad]

<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure where you get your UNC information but I am a OOS parent of a Morehead who is currently a junior. He has never had a class "taught" by a TA.

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</p>

<p>I answered this once. The USNEWS on-line premium edition, which is entirely compiled from data provided by each college.</p>

<p>The percentage of "class sections" taught by a graduate teaching assistants at UNC is 30%. I can't imagine why UNC would lie about the 30% figure if it weren't true. Nor, can I see why it would be surprising with a 14/1 student/faculty ratio. BTW, leading a discussion section of a lecture class, grading essay papers, conducting labs, etc. is teaching. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I really do have to wonder also where you get your ideas about UNC-CH (and why you seem to have an axe to grind here with this particular school.)

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</p>

<p>I don't have an axe to grind. I loved the school when we toured and was a little disappointed when my daughter decided not to apply (she liked it better than UVA).</p>

<p>My comments about the additional merit discount dollars at UNC was really more of a generic expression of frustration about the tsunami-like shift from need-based aid to merit aid discounting that is taking place in American higher education. Looking at it systemically, this trend risks driving elite college education back 100 years when only wealthy students had access.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that need-based aid extends up to families making as much as $180,000 per year at many schools, so there is no reason that a need-based philosophy cannot cover the middle class quite nicely (if the dollars are available).</p>

[tyr]

<p>unintended double post</p>

[hoedown]

<p>
[quote]
My comments about the additional merit discount dollars at UNC was really more of a generic expression of frustration about the tsunami-like shift from need-based aid to merit aid discounting that is taking place in American higher education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But I feel it is wrong to point a finger at UNC as you did. I also think it is wrong to not acknowledge their leadership in this area.</p>

[ldmom06]

<p>This forum is so funny. Click on one thread to hear rants about how little merit aid there is at the top schools. Click on another and hear all the complaints about TOO MUCH merit aid. </p>

<p>(BTW...at the Morehead website, there is a clear and definitive statement that financial need is NOT considered when awarding this scholarship. Just addressing 1sokkermom's concern.)</p>

[hoedown]

<p>
[quote]
This forum is so funny. Click on one thread to hear rants about how little merit aid there is at the top schools. Click on another and hear all the complaints about TOO MUCH merit aid.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I know. One of these days I'm going to open up the forum to find me in a heated argument with myself.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>
[quote]
This forum is so funny. Click on one thread to hear rants about how little merit aid there is at the top schools. Click on another and hear all the complaints about TOO MUCH merit aid.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, is that not normal? When it comes to financial aid, and especially the policies that determine the distribution of funds, you won't find many happy campers.</p>